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The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

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  • #16
    Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

    Sounds like a promising project, subscribed!
    Shaken, not stirred...

    Classix II
    OS MTM's
    Digger 8 sub
    Overnight Sensations Center Channel
    Sprite Build
    Wolf's PC Speakers
    Minions III with Voxel Sub

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    • #17
      Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

      Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
      The ND16FA-6 seems like the perfect candidate for this design.
      I thought the ND16 would be a good fit too.
      Melby Audio - Flat Pack Speaker Kits

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

        The ND16 is out of stock currently; back in June 10th.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

          I'm loving this, knock'm dead Joey.
          Kenny

          http://www.diy-ny.com/
          DIY NY/NJ 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGwA...ature=youtu.be
          Man does not live by measurements alone, a little music helps.

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          • #20
            Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

            Not criticizing or screaming "Don't do it man!" but that's a really strange balance of drivers. Looking at the TB sub's response, I wouldn't cross it over any higher than 300 Hz. The SB tweeter is an awesome driver that can easily cross as low as 2000hz (I have it crossed at 2200). With that said you are asking the lowest quality driver of the group (by a bunch) to reproduce the most important range. Would you at least consider upgrading the mid to a RS100P or a TB 3" or 4" bamboo cone? You will learn just as much by experimenting with a better mid. And the cost difference in this case is minimal.
            Craig

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            • #21
              Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

              I presume there will be little to no BSC since this will be on a desk and rely on the desk boundary gain? The woofers very low sensitivity compared to the other drivers so you'd need every boundary gain there Is.
              I think the ND16 is a better candidate for the design also.
              As for the Beston, I love that little ribbon. And it costs the same (actually less if you consider free shipping from PE if you bought the XO components too) than the SB.
              Nichikuros - Peerless 831735 Nomex + Vifa NE25VTA
              Digger8 - Small compact 8" sub with F3 = 20Hz
              Madison-D and Madison-R - Tang Band W4-1720 + Vifa BC25SC06 or Beston RT003C (TM and MTM)
              Jeffrey - Tang Band W5-704D + Beston RT003C
              Jasmine - Fountek FW146 + Fountek NeoCD3.0 Ribbon in Pioneer BS21 Cabinet

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              • #22
                Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

                Before you decide on x-over points, consider the excursion of the mid at about 400hz. See what spl it's capable of with maybe 1mm excursion which is about half its xmax. I think if it's moving 1mm, it's crossed too low. If you are crossing second order at 400 hz, the mid will be 6 dB below the speaker SPL. So, if the speaker maximum intended SPL is 85 dB, then see what excursion is required of the mid at 79 dB. This is of course just my speculation as to what is reasonable excursion. Some testing, and listening will tell you a lot more, but if you need to cross high, you might want to keep the woofer on the front with the mid.

                Just as a very rough estimate, this peerless mid will need six times the excursion of a 5.25", or three and a half times the excursion of a 4" mid for the same SPL output.

                Doubling the x-over frequency cuts excursion in half... I think.
                Last edited by rpb; 05-13-2014, 11:12 PM.

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                • #23
                  Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

                  First off....WOW!!! Thanks fellas! I did not expect this much response! So let's just get to it!

                  Originally posted by Melby Audio View Post
                  Just a thought, with that small of a mid, you could probably get by with a smaller, less expensive tweeter. Should be a cool project either way.
                  Originally posted by craigk View Post
                  I was thinking the same thing.
                  Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                  For a few dollars more- you could have a Beston ribbon for treble, and you don't have to play that low to that mid.
                  I applaud your woofer choice!
                  Later,
                  Wolf
                  Originally posted by isaeagle4031 View Post
                  Ben I considered recommending the beston. I thought it may need a little more finise for first build/design.
                  Originally posted by Melby Audio View Post
                  I thought the ND16 would be a good fit too.
                  Originally posted by jclin4 View Post
                  The ND16 is out of stock currently; back in June 10th.
                  Thanks fellas. I see that the Dayton nd16 is getting a big vote to bump the SB. I also see the ribbon fans are in the house. I do love the ribbon in the Speedster's and would definitely go for it, but I guess my ignorance is getting in the way. I hadn't even considered a ribbon honestly, but do know that I enjoy their quality.

                  What's more important here, the tonality of the ribbon or the center to center spacing of the little guy to the mid?

                  Originally posted by donradick View Post
                  Too Expensive! Too cheap! Too big, Too small, not efficient enough! :eek:
                  Just had to do it, man. Opinions are like <oh, better not go there in a "family" forum>

                  Man, that woofer is a beast! 35Hz in 4 liters? Woohoo!
                  Looks like a very nice project. I may have to follow you down that road if I can get
                  permission from "other members of the household".
                  Hahahhaha. I'm hoping that woofer pays off! Good luck....sometimes it is easier to be forgiven than given permission. ;)

                  Originally posted by greywarden View Post
                  With that far of a gap, I don't think it will make much of a difference when it comes to the crossover design, you will still have to attenuate the tweeter almost 10dB either way.
                  I didn't know if it was "more difficult" to deal with.

                  Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post
                  I run Windows in bootcamp to get all my software running. I've had some issues that seem to be related to the soundcard and have thought about buying an external but have been able to get fairly repeatable results with a little practice. I'm sure my noise floor could be lowered by running an external though.
                  Kerry, if you could help me get this kind of stuff going on my Mac, I'd owe you one.

                  Originally posted by [email protected] View Post
                  The ND16FA-6 seems like the perfect candidate for this design. You can cross it over to that mid at a high enough frequency to keep it comfortable when playing loud, and you can place it almost right up against the square frame of the mid. Center-to-center spacing becomes much more important when designing a speaker for near-field listening, especially a three-way, because small changes in head position will affect flight time from each of the drivers to a larger extent.

                  Will you be bi-amping the system? It looks like you may want to, with the low sensitivity of the woofers.
                  Hey Rory! I wasn't planning on biamping. I figured a Emo Mini-x would be enough. do you think this system will need more than 80W @ 4ohm from 3ft away?

                  Honestly, in regard to the Dayton ND 16, I hadn't looked at any Dayton products for this build since I have done so many projects with them. Was trying to work with different brands a bit. :o If the ND16 will have a major positive impact on the overall quality of the system, then I would definitely consider swapping it in.

                  Originally posted by kevin007 View Post
                  Sounds like a promising project, subscribed!
                  Originally posted by kenny_k View Post
                  I'm loving this, knock'm dead Joey.
                  Thanks fellas!!

                  Originally posted by PWR RYD View Post
                  Not criticizing or screaming "Don't do it man!" but that's a really strange balance of drivers. Looking at the TB sub's response, I wouldn't cross it over any higher than 300 Hz. The SB tweeter is an awesome driver that can easily cross as low as 2000hz (I have it crossed at 2200). With that said you are asking the lowest quality driver of the group (by a bunch) to reproduce the most important range. Would you at least consider upgrading the mid to a RS100P or a TB 3" or 4" bamboo cone? You will learn just as much by experimenting with a better mid. And the cost difference in this case is minimal.
                  PR, I had actually thought about crossing the woofer around 250! I told Chuck in my other thread.

                  Kim offered me a set of these 4" woofers. Should I opt for those?

                  Originally posted by jsr View Post
                  I presume there will be little to no BSC since this will be on a desk and rely on the desk boundary gain? The woofers very low sensitivity compared to the other drivers so you'd need every boundary gain there Is.
                  I think the ND16 is a better candidate for the design also.
                  As for the Beston, I love that little ribbon. And it costs the same (actually less if you consider free shipping from PE if you bought the XO components too) than the SB.
                  I'm not certain on BSC, as I don't truly understand all that it is quite yet. I understand it in the most basic sense, but not fully.

                  Originally posted by rpb View Post
                  Before you decide on x-over points, consider the excursion of the mid at about 400hz. See what spl it's capable of with maybe 1mm excursion which is about half its xmax. I think if it's moving 1mm, it's crossed too low. If you are crossing second order at 400 hz, the mid will be 6 dB below the speaker SPL. So, if the speaker maximum intended SPL is 85 dB, then see what excursion is required of the mid at 79 dB. This is of course just my speculation as to what is reasonable excursion. Some testing, and listening will tell you a lot more, but if you need to cross high, you might want to keep the woofer on the front with the mid.
                  It seems, Kim, I may be swapping out the mid for something a bit more formidable, so I may be taking you up on that 4" mid offer, if it still stands. ;)

                  And very good point on keeping the woofer on the front. I was hoping to let the mid handle all the voice frequncies.....

                  I know that baffle width plays a large role in how the system responds sonically, are there any width limits I should consider in drawing up a cabinet?
                  Builds - C-Killa - Speedsters - LithMTM - Talking Sticks - Pocket Rockets - Khanspires - Dayton RS Center - RS225/28A - Kairos - Adelphos - SEOS TD12X - Dayton 8 - Needles - 871S - eD6c - Overnight Sensations - Tritrix (ported) - Lineup F4 - Stentorians - The Cheapies - Tub Thumpers - Barbells - Tuba HT - Numerous subwoofers - probably missing a few...... :p

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                  • #24
                    Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

                    I think a small 3 way for nearfield use will work very well - as Hafnium really shines in that application. I can speak from experience that you will need to do some planning regarding layout. Getting everything to fit can be a challenge. When you start talking about a larger mid and have the SB Acoustics tweeter, I wonder how all of that is going to work on a small baffle.

                    I used one of the Vifa/Peerless 2 inch mids as a mid-tweeter in a Black Box project last year that now resides in my garage. I tried a number of different crossover points and felt that it did best above about 500-600 Hz. Since you are staying nearfield, you might be able to get a little lower. The 3" variants seem comfortable at 300 Hz.
                    Keep an open mind, but don't let your brain fall out.

                    Sehlin Sound Solutions

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                    • #25
                      Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

                      I think that peerless would make a nice mid. With your small,low sensitivity sub, it should be a good fit, and if it measures anything like it's full range cousin, it should be pretty low distortion. If you think you will need more SPL than your excursion will give you you could always MTM it.
                      Melby Audio - Flat Pack Speaker Kits

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                      • #26
                        Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

                        Originally posted by joeybutts View Post

                        It seems, Kim, I may be swapping out the mid for something a bit more formidable, so I may be taking you up on that 4" mid offer, if it still stands. ;)

                        And very good point on keeping the woofer on the front. I was hoping to let the mid handle all the voice frequncies.....

                        I know that baffle width plays a large role in how the system responds sonically, are there any width limits I should consider in drawing up a cabinet?
                        Here is my take:

                        First, the buyout mid has a 1.9mm xmax instead of a 1mm in the Vifa TC6. Here is what that looks like with a full 80 watts of power and a second order L/R filter at 400hz on the low end in a 1.2L sealed enclosure.

                        Click image for larger version

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                        IIRC, I crossed the TC6 at around 500hz when I used it. Even crossing that hight on the mid, I think you could still match up to the TB sub. It might not be the easiest crossover in the world, but should still be doable if the actual response matches the spec sheet.

                        Second, something else to think about is that the original idea of going with a side mounted woofer was to make the cabinet thinner, correct? If you go with the 4" HDS, you will only end up about 1" thinner than if the sub was mounted on the front. If you just mount the sub on the front, I don't think you will have any major issues getting them to cross. And if it doesn't work out, you've only spent $12 on mids and it's not that big of a waste.
                        -Kerry

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                        • #27
                          Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

                          Also, don't know if you have tried to model the TB sub yet, but it wants an incredibly long port (like almost 4") in a small box. It works better with a passive radiator like the smaller TB subs. The response looks decent in sealed box, so I would probably go that route with this sub if you want to stay in a roughly 4L box. You could use the Dayton 8" passive in a 5L with about 170g added mass to get flat to 30hz response if you wanted to go that route, but it would make the footpring a lot bigger.

                          Here are the responses of the PR in 5L in black and sealed in 4L in gray, both stuffed. Like I said, I would probably go with sealed in this case since the difference at 30hz is only about 8db and you will get some boundry gain from the desk.

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	sealed and PR.jpg
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ID:	1158021
                          Last edited by Navy Guy; 05-14-2014, 11:40 AM. Reason: forgot the picture
                          -Kerry

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                          • #28
                            Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

                            I have an m-audio mobilepre you can borrow that should work with your Mac. Then you can just pick up a mic.

                            I know you are doing this for a nearfield but it would be cool to see how it works just as a monitor on it's own. I've found speakers designed for nearfield sound pretty good on a shelf in a living room.

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                            • #29
                              Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

                              Originally posted by scottsehlin View Post
                              I think a small 3 way for nearfield use will work very well - as Hafnium really shines in that application. I can speak from experience that you will need to do some planning regarding layout. Getting everything to fit can be a challenge. When you start talking about a larger mid and have the SB Acoustics tweeter, I wonder how all of that is going to work on a small baffle.

                              I used one of the Vifa/Peerless 2 inch mids as a mid-tweeter in a Black Box project last year that now resides in my garage. I tried a number of different crossover points and felt that it did best above about 500-600 Hz. Since you are staying nearfield, you might be able to get a little lower. The 3" variants seem comfortable at 300 Hz.
                              Thanks Scott. It will be fun to squeeze together. It looks like the tweeter and mid will be changing. I'm not sure what everyone thinks is a better option for the tweeter, go with something like the Beston Ribbon, or go with the HiVi TN25 or Dayton ND16. Honestly the Dayton is my last choice. Ben thinks the HiVi is a venerable option but also rec. the Beston. :p It definitely makes sense to go with something small format or closes CtC but ribbons are beautiful.

                              The mid I think is a definite switch to that 4" Peerless. Though the project got it's jump from the 2", I should do it right.

                              Originally posted by Melby Audio View Post
                              I think that peerless would make a nice mid. With your small,low sensitivity sub, it should be a good fit, and if it measures anything like it's full range cousin, it should be pretty low distortion. If you think you will need more SPL than your excursion will give you you could always MTM it.
                              I think that mid should fit very well too. Thanks for the vote of confidence MA!

                              Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post
                              Here is my take:

                              First, the buyout mid has a 1.9mm xmax instead of a 1mm in the Vifa TC6. Here is what that looks like with a full 80 watts of power and a second order L/R filter at 400hz on the low end in a 1.2L sealed enclosure.

                              IIRC, I crossed the TC6 at around 500hz when I used it. Even crossing that hight on the mid, I think you could still match up to the TB sub. It might not be the easiest crossover in the world, but should still be doable if the actual response matches the spec sheet.

                              Second, something else to think about is that the original idea of going with a side mounted woofer was to make the cabinet thinner, correct? If you go with the 4" HDS, you will only end up about 1" thinner than if the sub was mounted on the front. If you just mount the sub on the front, I don't think you will have any major issues getting them to cross. And if it doesn't work out, you've only spent $12 on mids and it's not that big of a waste.
                              Kerry, are you suggesting the TC6 or just referencing or just confusing with the Peerless 4"?

                              Correct. I am going to mount the woofer on the front for sure. No questions.

                              Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post
                              Also, don't know if you have tried to model the TB sub yet, but it wants an incredibly long port (like almost 4") in a small box. It works better with a passive radiator like the smaller TB subs. The response looks decent in sealed box, so I would probably go that route with this sub if you want to stay in a roughly 4L box. You could use the Dayton 8" passive in a 5L with about 170g added mass to get flat to 30hz response if you wanted to go that route, but it would make the footpring a lot bigger.

                              Here are the responses of the PR in 5L in black and sealed in 4L in gray, both stuffed. Like I said, I would probably go with sealed in this case since the difference at 30hz is only about 8db and you will get some boundry gain from the desk.
                              You mean 4' port? Sealed works and makes it a bit easier to build. My source will be my laptop so I can eq a bit if needed to taste, which shouldn't be much. I do really like my sealed setups in both my HT and my pickup, so I am willing to bet this pans out well. And I think that Mini-X will keep it bumping clean.

                              Originally posted by fwiler View Post
                              I have an m-audio mobilepre you can borrow that should work with your Mac. Then you can just pick up a mic.

                              I know you are doing this for a nearfield but it would be cool to see how it works just as a monitor on it's own. I've found speakers designed for nearfield sound pretty good on a shelf in a living room.
                              Thanks fw! Let me acquire the mic and then we'll touch base! Really appreciate the offer.
                              Builds - C-Killa - Speedsters - LithMTM - Talking Sticks - Pocket Rockets - Khanspires - Dayton RS Center - RS225/28A - Kairos - Adelphos - SEOS TD12X - Dayton 8 - Needles - 871S - eD6c - Overnight Sensations - Tritrix (ported) - Lineup F4 - Stentorians - The Cheapies - Tub Thumpers - Barbells - Tuba HT - Numerous subwoofers - probably missing a few...... :p

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: The Small Stack; a Micro 3-way.

                                Originally posted by Navy Guy View Post
                                Here is my take:

                                First, the buyout mid has a 1.9mm xmax instead of a 1mm in the Vifa TC6. Here is what that looks like with a full 80 watts of power and a second order L/R filter at 400hz on the low end in a 1.2L sealed enclosure.

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]46903[/ATTACH]

                                IIRC, I crossed the TC6 at around 500hz when I used it. Even crossing that hight on the mid, I think you could still match up to the TB sub. It might not be the easiest crossover in the world, but should still be doable if the actual response matches the spec sheet.

                                Second, something else to think about is that the original idea of going with a side mounted woofer was to make the cabinet thinner, correct? If you go with the 4" HDS, you will only end up about 1" thinner than if the sub was mounted on the front. If you just mount the sub on the front, I don't think you will have any major issues getting them to cross. And if it doesn't work out, you've only spent $12 on mids and it's not that big of a waste.
                                Does the TC6 have the same SD as the one used here? What was the SPL at 400 hz with the excursion shown?

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