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DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

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  • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

    Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
    Mildperil on the other forum said that the DEAX25TP had the cleanest clarity with more high frequency extension then the Ultras. I might just have to try the DEAX25TP out for myself as soon as I can muster up some extra cash I will be buying some. Hopefully that will solve some of my high frequency clarity/extension problems.
    Hi Ubs

    Can you describe how your panel sounds compared to your Bertagni's. I am curious to know how it stacks up

    Thanks
    Fred

    Comment


    • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

      Originally posted by Fshow View Post
      Hi Ubs

      Can you describe how your panel sounds compared to your Bertagni's. I am curious to know how it stacks up

      Thanks
      Fred
      Hey Fred

      To put it simply it seems like my panels lack a tweeter compared to my bertagnis. The bertagnis seem to have a higher frequency extension. Not sure if its the bertagnis exciter alone or because they use a passive crossover to one of the exciters making it appear to sound like it has a higher frequency extension or both. My next goal is to order the DAEX25TP and a passive crossover to see if that helps. I already solved my bass and noise panel issues, I just need to solve this high extension clarity issue to match them to my bertagni speakers then I will be satisfied.

      Other things to take into consideration is the quality of the EPS as my bertagnis seem to use the higher quality grade of EPS so that is another goal of mine to acquire some higher grade of EPS. Another consideration is the solution the bertagnis used on the front of the panel as there skin but I dont know what it is, as its a brownish almost red dirt color and it is very hard. I was thinking maybe some kind of water proof paint that they use on boats?

      Also the placement of the bertagnis exciters are very different then the placement exciter guides from parts express and others as they like to keep all there exciters all together in a bunch , while bertagni uses one in the middle and one in the top corner......what I have found out by putting one exciter in the top corner for some reason it appears to produce more highs or the highs are more prominent probably due to more energy radiating from the corner is my guess.

      Comment


      • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

        Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
        Hey Fred

        To put it simply it seems like my panels lack a tweeter compared to my bertagnis. The bertagnis seem to have a higher frequency extension. Not sure if its the bertagnis exciter alone or because they use a passive crossover to one of the exciters making it appear to sound like it has a higher frequency extension or both. My next goal is to order the DAEX25TP and a passive crossover to see if that helps. I already solved my bass and noise panel issues, I just need to solve this high extension clarity issue to match them to my bertagni speakers then I will be satisfied.
        Hi Ubs

        Glad to hear you are making good progress. I have the ability to measure and equalize the higher frequencies, but it was still lacking after doing so. I was just boosting the treble frequencies that I had and the quality was not there. Just for a test I hooked up a piezo horn with a series resistor and a small amount of absorbent material in the throat of the horn to equalize its output. It made a real difference. The panel mass, I would think, is harder for the exciter to make move as compared to a tweeter small mass. Also the Bertagni's foam is probably better.

        Fred

        Comment


        • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

          Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
          Hey Fred

          To put it simply it seems like my panels lack a tweeter compared to my bertagnis. The bertagnis seem to have a higher frequency extension. Not sure if its the bertagnis exciter alone or because they use a passive crossover to one of the exciters making it appear to sound like it has a higher frequency extension or both. My next goal is to order the DAEX25TP and a passive crossover to see if that helps. I already solved my bass and noise panel issues, I just need to solve this high extension clarity issue to match them to my bertagni speakers then I will be satisfied.

          Other things to take into consideration is the quality of the EPS as my bertagnis seem to use the higher quality grade of EPS so that is another goal of mine to acquire some higher grade of EPS. Another consideration is the solution the bertagnis used on the front of the panel as there skin but I dont know what it is, as its a brownish almost red dirt color and it is very hard. I was thinking maybe some kind of water proof paint that they use on boats?

          Also the placement of the bertagnis exciters are very different then the placement exciter guides from parts express and others as they like to keep all there exciters all together in a bunch , while bertagni uses one in the middle and one in the top corner......what I have found out by putting one exciter in the top corner for some reason it appears to produce more highs or the highs are more prominent probably due to more energy radiating from the corner is my guess.
          Hi Ubs

          For some reason I didn't see the bottom two paragraphs until now, but I think you are right on with your ideas. One thing , on this old house they were using marine paint on canvas rugs because it was so flexible. It may take some research on finding the best coating, but I agree it is a good goal.
          Fred

          Comment


          • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

            Haven't surfed since 2K, but . . .

            FWIW - Surfboard EPS (Two Pound Fusion Grade (@ 1/8" beads)) is tighter than construction materials - Epoxy is used to glass EPS (polystyrene) boards instead of familiar resins used when Clark was The foam supplier, using different formulation with heavier & tighter celled polyurethane foam.

            Regular resins used on polyurethane are OK, but those resins & EPS are reactive in negative way.

            'Glass is not required for Epoxy Resin (Read; Glue) to bond to EPS and most importantly, it's as if they were made for each other, though additional drying time & certainly, industrial strength mask & ventilation are called for.

            That's great, but again, regular EPS has larger cells than surfboard EPS blanks, which are more expensive.

            Yada yada yada . . .

            All that said - I have a feeling those Bertagni panels are polyurethane.

            Comment


            • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

              With all ^that^ said, *somebody* has got to have a new and/or old skool surfboard to plop an exciter on. Same for skateboard blank, pintail longboard preferred. ;) ;b

              Comment


              • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

                Originally posted by Tin Ear View Post
                Haven't surfed since 2K, but . . .

                FWIW - Surfboard EPS (Two Pound Fusion Grade (@ 1/8" beads)) is tighter than construction materials - Epoxy is used to glass EPS (polystyrene) boards instead of familiar resins used when Clark was The foam supplier, using different formulation with heavier & tighter celled polyurethane foam.

                Regular resins used on polyurethane are OK, but those resins & EPS are reactive in negative way.

                'Glass is not required for Epoxy Resin (Read; Glue) to bond to EPS and most importantly, it's as if they were made for each other, though additional drying time & certainly, industrial strength mask & ventilation are called for.

                That's great, but again, regular EPS has larger cells than surfboard EPS blanks, which are more expensive.

                Yada yada yada . . .

                All that said - I have a feeling those Bertagni panels are polyurethane.
                I was thinking about using Epoxy on my EPS polysterene panels as the skin to see if it would improve the sound.

                As for the Bertagnis being polyurethane although I am not totally sure I think the Bertagnis are EPS Polysterene.

                Comment


                • DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

                  Originally posted by Unbiasedsound View Post
                  I was thinking about using Epoxy on my EPS polysterene panels as the skin to see if it would improve the sound.

                  As for the Bertagnis being polyurethane although I am not totally sure I think the Bertagnis are EPS Polysterene.
                  - Hope you reach your ideal, whether taking cues from numerous patent listings and/or if implemented, your epoxy application you've already given consideration to. Heck, by many means necessary - Go for what you know!

                  - - This patent's specs dismisses my inexperienced assumption (never "assume") and backs up your correct assessment of material in hand . . .
                  http://www.google.com.ai/patents/US4928312

                  Really looking forward to your take on DAEX25TP. Along with rmeinke's recent list of 3 recommendations to consider for various placements should give many a dear viewer in similar situations a variety of motors to choose from.

                  Comment


                  • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

                    Originally posted by Tin Ear View Post
                    - Hope you reach your ideal, whether taking cues from numerous patent listings and/or if implemented, your epoxy application you've already given consideration to. Heck, by many means necessary - Go for what you know!

                    - - This patent's specs dismisses my inexperienced assumption (never "assume") and backs up your correct assessment of material in hand . . .
                    http://www.google.com.ai/patents/US4928312

                    Really looking forward to your take on DAEX25TP. Along with rmeinke's recent list of 3 recommendations to consider for various placements should give many a dear viewer in similar situations a variety of motors to choose from.
                    Thanks Tin Ear. Yes those patent listings has given me a lot of ideas to consider. Another thing that intrigued me about reading Bertagnis patent is he mentions different densities on a panel. If I am not mistaken he said a higher density is better for high frequencies while a lower density is better for bass. A member on here said and I have noticed as well that when the glue water mixture was sanded off the bass increased in which I agree but the down fall is the higher frequencies seem to suffer a little. On harder/denser surfaces the highs seem to shine more, so it seems that bertagnis patent notes on different densities affecting frequency is accurate.

                    I am not sure when I will be able to purchase the DAEX25TP but until then I will be experimenting with other ways to improve on my panels.

                    Comment


                    • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

                      i wonder if it's possible to selectively reduce the density of the foam panel after it's been made. probably easier to glue two different pieces of foam together in a **** joint or something though. of course that's assuming you want one panel...which, you're by no means required to have.


                      still haven't bought my stuff (other things have required my time and money)...still working out some of the ideas though (and waiting for the 3d printer at work to go idle for a bit so I can do some non work printing)....was thinking, I'm going with plywood since it was stated that the exciters I've chosen seem to prefer wood to foam....thinking about edge suspension. if I build a frame to house the panels if I make the frame the same dimensions as the panel (12x14.5) then I could put some thick(ish) double sided foam tape around the edge and adhere the edge of the panels to that...which would give it mild edge dampening which, seems to be in the range of how the fredclosure increased the full rangeness of the rig (all be it by permanent suspension because the edges are glued directly to the foam)? does that sound about right?


                      edit: hehe, the forum filter censored B U T T when I said **** joint hehehehe silly.

                      Comment


                      • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

                        May have something there using the two sided foam tape. TOL; use the thick 3/4" x 1/2" low density stuff but ...do not line the entire perimeter with it. Use just enough to secure the panel to the frame then use extra strips to 'tune' the panel. Then again, not sure how securely two sided foam seal tape would hold a vibrating panel from only one side.

                        With that said, my treated cardboard panel was sandwiched between two 1/2" strips of low density foam which was sandwiched between the frame halves which had about a 1" grove around the inside perimeter. It's still a work in progress, IIRC, it seemed overdamped so decided to cut tabs into the cardboard like the tabs on the eps, then the daex32ep-4 died before any real measurements could be taken. The mod should be a page or two back if you want to look at it.
                        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
                        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
                        http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

                        Comment


                        • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

                          Epoxy Paint in lieu of glue or resin, anyone?

                          Comment


                          • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

                            Originally posted by Tin Ear View Post
                            Epoxy Paint in lieu of glue or resin, anyone?
                            I'd considered this but never had an exciter live long enough to test. Flex additive can be added to automotive paint.
                            http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...khanspires-but
                            http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...pico-neo-build
                            http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...ensation-build

                            Comment


                            • Re: DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

                              Originally posted by Tin Ear View Post
                              Epoxy Paint in lieu of glue or resin, anyone?
                              I went to a local hardware store today....anything epoxy is pretty expensive, even more so if it does not improve the sound of my panels LOL.

                              I also seen a 4X8ft sheet of woven bamboo but at $30.00 a sheet forget it. Too bad they didnt have a smaller piece that I could afford to sample it.

                              I look at all the wasted stuff I bought in my garage from wood fiber veneer to all type of other materials I probably wont ever use it just makes me smh.

                              I will let someone else experiment with epoxy and wait for there results as my funds as well as my gal's temper are wearing thin. lol

                              I also experimented with a 2 way crossover combined with a old tweeter I had laying around and it sounded pretty good but that defeats the whole purpose of a "FULL RANGE" transducer speaker. But if worse comes to worse that is my other option lol.
                              Last edited by Unbiasedsound; 02-10-2016, 03:19 AM.

                              Comment


                              • DIY Flat Panel Speaker Love

                                Well, you could use the excuse, I mean, defense that your sound is indeed unbiased.

                                Klipsch didn't wear a BS! button for nothing. Heresy, they said, and a legend was born.

                                One could go 3-way (ah, memories) with piezo, exciter, bmr - heck, even 4, what with sub being omni and all.

                                -

                                Make her something for Valentine's Day with some of those materials you have laying around and justifiable homicide will no longer be on her mind. ;)

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