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OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

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  • generic
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Tin_Ears View Post
    Bear, I never stated the negative things I've seen are the 'norm'. I support hunting and believe it's far more humane than most mass market animal raising and harvesting.

    I disagree completely that animals are 'just' animals. No, they're not human but they do have compassion to some degree and in one form or another.

    Just one example...

    It's much more then just some degree. Dogs are extremely loyal and loving. While their might be some level of never growing up, compared to humans, they also retain good traits that most people loose, turning them in to a-holes. If anyone keeps up with the latest research in to elephants, dolphins, and birds, they are all rather intelligent, have long term memories both good and bad, and they most defiantly have full emotions. Stray dogs in Russia know how to ride the sub way, crows and other birds learn traffic lights patterns and how to integrate in urban areas. Animals pick best friends and form relationships. Sometimes odd ones.

    Regarding farm animals. I know pigs wag their tails when happy and very much enjoy human interaction (the good kind) and I know a small business man / part time farmer who probably has less then a dozen pigs. They thrive in larger pins, have access to the outside, etc. Factory farming animals in not only animal abuse, it's just down right gross.

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  • Tin_Ears
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Bear, I'm not going to post about this again. But I disagree with everything you just wrote.

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  • Bear64
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Tin_Ears View Post
    I agree with you as a whole... and forgive me if I'm wrong... but you're a Christian, right?

    Before the great flood, mankind did not consume animal flesh. After the flood man was allowed to eat animals in order to survive... for a time. My question is, if there's no longer a need and if it's far less efficient to do so then why do we still raise and consume animals?

    Don't get me wrong... I still eat some meat. I'm just considering becoming vegan.

    I realize this is verging into religion... but I only mention it to make a point regarding what's 'natural' for mankind to do. BTW... I became an agnostic many years ago.
    I dont put religion before logic. I was raised to be christian like everyone else but Christianity is a philosophy first, religion second. Animals do not have a soul or consciousness like humans. They have no concept of ethics or religion, guilt, politics. It only exists in our minds. If you choose to believe that eating meat is murderous and bad its because people have created this guilt complex. Humans need protein, Protein from plants is not enough. If just surviving is your thing so be it, but its not healthy and your allowing your fear and guilt control you. They animals could care less. They have no idea whats going right up to the moment the life ends. Raising animals is easy, we do it every day and it cost effective.

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  • Tin_Ears
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
    Nothing wrong with that. i wouldnt call you a wuss either. Its not an easy thing to do. There is little need for it in today's modern world. And its even harder if you hold no value in it and no point in doing it. For me there is value. not just the meat/trophy. Humans are part of the natural world like all the other animals, we are predators weather you choose to be or not. Trying to remove your self from it is bad in my opinion. They all ways say "dont feed the wild animals". why? because it disrupts there behavour. They lose there fear of humans, changes there feeding habits. Hunting is one way we stay connected with the natural world. I think ive gain a greater respect for animals because of it. And of course i mean responsible hunting. Those that dont hunt seem to miss this point and tend to go overboard with what they consider ethical. hunting is natural for us, but if you dont learn it you wont understand it as well.
    I agree with you as a whole... and forgive me if I'm wrong... but you're a Christian, right?

    Before the great flood, mankind did not consume animal flesh. After the flood man was allowed to eat animals in order to survive... for a time. My question is, if there's no longer a need and if it's far less efficient to do so then why do we still raise and consume animals?

    Don't get me wrong... I still eat some meat. I'm just considering becoming vegan.

    I realize this is verging into religion... but I only mention it to make a point regarding what's 'natural' for mankind to do. BTW... I became an agnostic many years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bear64
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Tin_Ears View Post
    ^^^ Right, IMO, though I dob't shoot any animals of any size unless it's a danger or a nuisance. Yeah, I'm a wuss.
    Nothing wrong with that. i wouldnt call you a wuss either. Its not an easy thing to do. There is little need for it in today's modern world. And its even harder if you hold no value in it and no point in doing it. For me there is value. not just the meat/trophy. Humans are part of the natural world like all the other animals, we are predators weather you choose to be or not. Trying to remove your self from it is bad in my opinion. They all ways say "dont feed the wild animals". why? because it disrupts there behavour. They lose there fear of humans, changes there feeding habits. Hunting is one way we stay connected with the natural world. I think ive gain a greater respect for animals because of it. And of course i mean responsible hunting. Those that dont hunt seem to miss this point and tend to go overboard with what they consider ethical. hunting is natural for us, but if you dont learn it you wont understand it as well.

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  • Tin_Ears
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    ^^^ Right, IMO, though I dob't shoot any animals of any size unless it's a danger or a nuisance. Yeah, I'm a wuss.

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  • Wolf
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    I prefer fishing, as I have less trouble killing a fish than I do a large mammal. I went deer hunting once with Dad, and I couldn't do it either. I love deer meat (as well as many other meats), but I have trouble killing a deer personally. I do not have a problem with others doing so. Even in the Word, it does not condone killing for sport, as it says that God's creatures were put here for our usage; ie- not our wasting.

    I can't hit a rabbit cuz I'm not fast enough. They taste really good....
    I've killed baever, squirrel, mice, raccoon, woodchuck, fish, opossum, and chipmunks. No I've not eaten all of those, but in the cases of 'being a nuisance', possibly incurring property damage, or threatening my family due to close proximity or sickness; I have no problem putting down an animal. In the event that the kill is not in the first strike, hopefully the second one finishes the job to prevent prolonged suffering. If you mame an animal, find it, and take care of it. There will inevitably be misses and hits, or even hits not where you intended. Strive to make the kill in one strike, whatever the method.

    Since I live in the country, I get the occasional wild animal around. For instance- I stepped outside on my back porch last weekend to find a raccoon tearing through a bag of recycling I'd set out looking for food- in broad daylight! Being that 'coon are nocturnal, this sent up a red flag. I shoed him off the porch since my daughter and wife were right behind me going out. (Almost let my daughter go first, but quickly changed that when I saw him. Didn't want her getting bitten.) Since it was not 'acting right', and stumbled as it went, I put it down. I burnt the carcass the next day since it was likely sick.

    This is the kind of treatment I find acceptable. No other animal will get sick from its meat, it was disposed of properly, and will no longer suffer. That said- I see nothing wrong with a 'proof' photo, but do not just waste an animal in terms of hunting. The Native Americans made use of everything from the buffalo. Food, shelter, clothing, weapons, and supplies. That is the ultimate usage of a kill, should it befitting. I don't see anything wrong with mounting a deer rack, but I love eating venison.

    Later,
    Wolf

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  • Tin_Ears
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
    lol, thats a condition response. you conditioned him to act a cerntain way when he pees. if he really got it he would haved pee'd on the tree the first time. but they cant because he didnt know the difference between the porch or the tree. He was never conditioned to pee somewhere specific at there house. Dogs are preditors they hunt and kill to eat. they are definitely smarter the vegasorous. I have a young dog now and i can train him to do something here at home and then try to get him to do it at the park and its like he never did it before. complicated tasks need to be broken done to small parts and he never puts it all together until sometime later and then finally it will all come together. it takes weeks to do, over and over again. then go and do it some where he's never been and cant do it. He's young. it takes years before they get really good.
    Have you ever seen a dog cry? I have many times... several different dogs. I'm talking real emotional tears from sadness.

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  • Bear64
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Tin_Ears View Post
    I had a male chow chow about thirty years ago. A friend of my parents-in-law asked to see him because they were considering getting a chow chow for themselves. I arrived there and opened the car door to let him out without a leash. The folks asked if I was worried he would run off or chase a cat or other animal. Nope... he minds what I tell him. A few minutes later the dog started to lift his leg on their front porch posts. I said, "Tiger, no. If you need to pee then go over on those trees" (I pointed to the trees). He went to the trees and selected a nice one. The couple was shocked and asked if he understood everything I said. I told them no but he pretty much gets the gist of it.

    No free will? No intelligence? No self-control? No compassion? Really?
    lol, thats a condition response. you conditioned him to act a cerntain way when he pees. if he really got it he would haved pee'd on the tree the first time. but they cant because he didnt know the difference between the porch or the tree. He was never conditioned to pee somewhere specific at there house. Dogs are preditors they hunt and kill to eat. they are definitely smarter the vegasorous. I have a young dog now and i can train him to do something here at home and then try to get him to do it at the park and its like he never did it before. complicated tasks need to be broken done to small parts and he never puts it all together until sometime later and then finally it will all come together. it takes weeks to do, over and over again. then go and do it some where he's never been and cant do it. He's young. it takes years before they get really good.

    Leave a comment:


  • killa
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
    , but he never thinks it through. like, maybe i should hydrate before we go. Little things that show he doesnt get it. Thats why they get hit by cars. If he needs to pee he just goes. Purely emotional instict for the purpose of survival and breeding. its not concuss thought.
    Could be describing a young child

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  • Tin_Ears
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
    The dog video is good stuff. Ive raised many dogs, trained them to hunt. They love it which is why i hunt most of the time. I had two young dogs a long time ago and they escaped, one got hit by a car the other saw it and wouldnt let anyone near his brother. A sad day to say the least, but the devotion they show is remarkable. Still, during my time training dogs ive seen quit clearly animals understand very little about the world around them. everytime we get ready to go hunting, the dog knows, but he never thinks it through. like, maybe i should hydrate before we go. Little things that show he doesnt get it. Thats why they get hit by cars. ive been around farm animals there even worse, dumb as rocks. What you see animals do is pure instinct. If he needs to pee he just goes. Purely emotional instict for the purpose of survival and breeding. its not concuss thought.
    I had a male chow chow about thirty years ago. A friend of my parents-in-law asked to see him because they were considering getting a chow chow for themselves. I arrived there and opened the car door to let him out without a leash. The folks asked if I was worried he would run off or chase a cat or other animal. Nope... he minds what I tell him. A few minutes later the dog started to lift his leg on their front porch posts. I said, "Tiger, no. If you need to pee then go over on those trees" (I pointed to the trees). He went to the trees and selected a nice one. The couple was shocked and asked if he understood everything I said. I told them no but he pretty much gets the gist of it.

    No free will? No intelligence? No self-control? No compassion? Really?

    Leave a comment:


  • Bear64
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    The dog video is good stuff. Ive raised many dogs, trained them to hunt. They love it which is why i hunt most of the time. I had two young dogs a long time ago and they escaped, one got hit by a car the other saw it and wouldnt let anyone near his brother. A sad day to say the least, but the devotion they show is remarkable. Still, during my time training dogs ive seen quit clearly animals understand very little about the world around them. everytime we get ready to go hunting, the dog knows, but he never thinks it through. like, maybe i should hydrate before we go. Little things that show he doesnt get it. Thats why they get hit by cars. ive been around farm animals there even worse, dumb as rocks. What you see animals do is pure instinct. If he needs to pee he just goes. Purely emotional instict for the purpose of survival and breeding. its not concuss thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • Squidspeak
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
    I hear ya, the problem with those stories of "I knew a guy that" is that naive people start to believe thats the norm. Thats how stories about unethical corp farming are evil grow. Corp farming is merely a way of financing a volatile industry. Farming is a risky business. Corporate goof ***** have no desire to run a farm thats why the lease it back to the original owner or a neighbor. the corp is only interested in quality control and maintaining a consistent product.

    On trophy hunting, if your going to kill an animal, dont you think you should make the most of all of it? meat and mounting a head and rack, do you believe throwing away the head because it demeaning to the animal is a good idea? i dont know any trophy hunter that waste meat.

    poaching an endangered species is a another matter. cultures outside America are another matter all together. Wild animals live in fear day in day out. there are always predator trying to kill them so yes the do know. frankly animal hunting brings big money to the conservation effort both here and abroad. more than you think.
    Bear, I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said
    Trophy hunting. What I meant was killing an animal only for the mount or skin to mount on the wall. If you are a responsible hunter
    I have no issue with someone getting their big buck mounted as long as the animal was harvested to eat not just because he would
    look good on the wall in the den.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tin_Ears
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Bear, I never stated the negative things I've seen are the 'norm'. I support hunting and believe it's far more humane than most mass market animal raising and harvesting.

    I disagree completely that animals are 'just' animals. No, they're not human but they do have compassion to some degree and in one form or another.

    Just one example...

    Leave a comment:


  • Bear64
    replied
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Squidspeak View Post
    Bear, I agree with
    your last two sentences but I also feel you can feed the masses without resorting to animal abuse. I really did not see anywhere in this
    thread where anyone said hunters are idiotic morons. What I did read was "specific" stories about people that forum members had issue with. I don't know if you read what I posted but it was not anti-hunting. I don't know if I buy into your corporate farm opinion
    but I feel you can humanely harvest animals and corporations don't strive to do so. One other note, poachers and trophy hunters do
    deserve a special hell. To kill or maim an animal to feed the Asian market for Ivory, Rhino horns and such so some guy thinks it wil
    work like Viagra is disturbing to say the least. But hey, they are only animals. They did not know their tusks or horns were valuable
    so what's the big deal if someone kils or maims me to get them. They are only animals,right?
    I hear ya, the problem with those stories of "I knew a guy that" is that naive people start to believe thats the norm. Thats how stories about unethical corp farming are evil grow. Corp farming is merely a way of financing a volatile industry. Farming is a risky business. Corporate goof ***** have no desire to run a farm thats why the lease it back to the original owner or a neighbor. the corp is only interested in quality control and maintaining a consistent product.

    On trophy hunting, if your going to kill an animal, dont you think you should make the most of all of it? meat and mounting a head and rack, do you believe throwing away the head because it demeaning to the animal is a good idea? i dont know any trophy hunter that waste meat.

    poaching an endangered species is a another matter. cultures outside America are another matter all together. Wild animals live in fear day in day out. there are always predator trying to kill them so yes the do know. frankly animal hunting brings big money to the conservation effort both here and abroad. more than you think.

    Leave a comment:

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