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  • #76
    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

    Originally posted by Tin_Ears View Post
    I agree with you as a whole... and forgive me if I'm wrong... but you're a Christian, right?

    Before the great flood, mankind did not consume animal flesh. After the flood man was allowed to eat animals in order to survive... for a time. My question is, if there's no longer a need and if it's far less efficient to do so then why do we still raise and consume animals?

    Don't get me wrong... I still eat some meat. I'm just considering becoming vegan.

    I realize this is verging into religion... but I only mention it to make a point regarding what's 'natural' for mankind to do. BTW... I became an agnostic many years ago.
    I dont put religion before logic. I was raised to be christian like everyone else but Christianity is a philosophy first, religion second. Animals do not have a soul or consciousness like humans. They have no concept of ethics or religion, guilt, politics. It only exists in our minds. If you choose to believe that eating meat is murderous and bad its because people have created this guilt complex. Humans need protein, Protein from plants is not enough. If just surviving is your thing so be it, but its not healthy and your allowing your fear and guilt control you. They animals could care less. They have no idea whats going right up to the moment the life ends. Raising animals is easy, we do it every day and it cost effective.

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    • #77
      Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

      Bear, I'm not going to post about this again. But I disagree with everything you just wrote.
      "We are just statistics, born to consume resources."
      ~Horace~, 65-8 BC

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

        Originally posted by Tin_Ears View Post
        Bear, I never stated the negative things I've seen are the 'norm'. I support hunting and believe it's far more humane than most mass market animal raising and harvesting.

        I disagree completely that animals are 'just' animals. No, they're not human but they do have compassion to some degree and in one form or another.

        Just one example...

        It's much more then just some degree. Dogs are extremely loyal and loving. While their might be some level of never growing up, compared to humans, they also retain good traits that most people loose, turning them in to a-holes. If anyone keeps up with the latest research in to elephants, dolphins, and birds, they are all rather intelligent, have long term memories both good and bad, and they most defiantly have full emotions. Stray dogs in Russia know how to ride the sub way, crows and other birds learn traffic lights patterns and how to integrate in urban areas. Animals pick best friends and form relationships. Sometimes odd ones.

        Regarding farm animals. I know pigs wag their tails when happy and very much enjoy human interaction (the good kind) and I know a small business man / part time farmer who probably has less then a dozen pigs. They thrive in larger pins, have access to the outside, etc. Factory farming animals in not only animal abuse, it's just down right gross.

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        • #79
          Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

          generic... I agree completely but trying to convince others is often a losing battle. I padded down my opinion in that post as I did in most others in this thread.

          I have nothing against Bear. We will simply never see eye-to-eye on this subject. Any more banter is a waste of time and effort. I will never never never agree with his viewpoint nor he mine.
          "We are just statistics, born to consume resources."
          ~Horace~, 65-8 BC

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          • #80
            Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

            Originally posted by Tin_Ears View Post
            Bear, I'm not going to post about this again. But I disagree with everything you just wrote.
            lol, why not?

            Look, someone does something that makes you mad, did you have to think and make a conscious decision to be mad? No it just happens, you think about it after. Your in a dark alley and a group of bad guys come at you, do you have to think about how bad this could be? No, fear comes over you instinctfully, then you think. Animals do the same,except the dont really think they just do. They survive through pure emotion and action. They say animals have language, do you suppose one deer eons ago said "2 grunts for yes, one grunt for no, pass the word." and the rest is history. No

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            • #81
              Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

              Are human beings the only living creatures guilty of 'assumptions' regarding situations we don't fully understand, other peoples and cultures, the world and the universe? Is this due to our arrogance? Do we subconsciously do this to ease our consciences or boost our egos? Time has proven our assumptions wrong over and over and over again. Do animals experience arrogance?

              Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
              lol, why not?

              Look, someone does something that makes you mad, did you have to think and make a conscious decision to be mad? No it just happens, you think about it after. Your in a dark alley and a group of bad guys come at you, do you have to think about how bad this could be? No, fear comes over you instinctfully, then you think. Animals do the same,except the dont really think they just do. They survive through pure emotion and action. They say animals have language, do you suppose one deer eons ago said "2 grunts for yes, one grunt for no, pass the word." and the rest is history. No
              "We are just statistics, born to consume resources."
              ~Horace~, 65-8 BC

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

                Originally posted by generic View Post
                It's much more then just some degree. Dogs are extremely loyal and loving. While their might be some level of never growing up, compared to humans, they also retain good traits that most people loose, turning them in to a-holes. If anyone keeps up with the latest research in to elephants, dolphins, and birds, they are all rather intelligent, have long term memories both good and bad, and they most defiantly have full emotions. Stray dogs in Russia know how to ride the sub way, crows and other birds learn traffic lights patterns and how to integrate in urban areas. Animals pick best friends and form relationships. Sometimes odd ones.

                Regarding farm animals. I know pigs wag their tails when happy and very much enjoy human interaction (the good kind) and I know a small business man / part time farmer who probably has less then a dozen pigs. They thrive in larger pins, have access to the outside, etc. Factory farming animals in not only animal abuse, it's just down right gross.
                This comment suggest animals are on par with humans and there not even close. What your seeing here is conditioned response. Learned behavior from the environment they live in. We are all products of our enviroment. Look in the mirror, there are millions of people just like you, the way you dress, the way you act, talk, think. Behavior you learned from someone else.

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                • #83
                  Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

                  Originally posted by Tin_Ears View Post
                  Human beings are probably the most guilty regarding 'assumptions' about situations we don't fully understand, other peoples and cultures, the world and the universe. Time has proven our assumptions wrong over and over again. Is this due to our arrogance? Do animals experience arrogance?
                  Assumptions? you mean the assumptions about animals level of consciousness? I dont have to assume. Why do deer get hit by cars? why dont they learn about highways, why doesnt it get passed down through the generation? because the have no logic functions in there brain. If farm animals were treated so bad why dont the resist, raise up and fight? at least they could formulate a political front. If we ended farming chickens and cows would become exstinct because no one need or care for them. that doesnt sound good.

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                  • #84
                    Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

                    Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
                    This comment suggest animals are on par with humans and there not even close. What your seeing here is conditioned response. Learned behavior from the environment they live in. We are all products of our enviroment. Look in the mirror, there are millions of people just like you, the way you dress, the way you act, talk, think. Behavior you learned from someone else.
                    Yes, and humans raised in a violent uncivilized situation become... like vicious animals.
                    "We are just statistics, born to consume resources."
                    ~Horace~, 65-8 BC

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

                      Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
                      lol, why not?

                      Look, someone does something that makes you mad, did you have to think and make a conscious decision to be mad? No it just happens, you think about it after. Your in a dark alley and a group of bad guys come at you, do you have to think about how bad this could be? No, fear comes over you instinctfully, then you think. Animals do the same,except the dont really think they just do. They survive through pure emotion and action. They say animals have language, do you suppose one deer eons ago said "2 grunts for yes, one grunt for no, pass the word." and the rest is history. No
                      Humans have the exact same survival fight or flight action when in danger. When fully active, people don't think, they react. The only difference is, people can be specially trained to not react as much and to overcome fear and insert whatever training they received, but the core action of fight or flight never fully goes away. One can argue service dogs can be trained to over come fear as well and perform actions that a non trained dog can't.

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                      • #86
                        Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

                        Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
                        Assumptions? you mean the assumptions about animals level of consciousness? I dont have to assume. Why do deer get hit by cars? why dont they learn about highways, why doesnt it get passed down through the generation? because the have no logic functions in there brain. If farm animals were treated so bad why dont the resist, raise up and fight? at least they could formulate a political front. If we ended farming chickens and cows would become exstinct because no one need or care for them. that doesnt sound good.
                        Because they're less intelligent, not because they can't feel anything. Logic has nothing to do with emotion. Some of the nicest, most loving people who ever lived are mentally retarded. They feel without logic getting in the way of what's really important. Are those challenged people in danger of getting run over by a vehicle more so than you or I? Yes... absolutely.
                        "We are just statistics, born to consume resources."
                        ~Horace~, 65-8 BC

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

                          Originally posted by Tin_Ears View Post
                          Because they're less intelligent, not because they can't feel anything. Logic has nothing to do with emotion. Some of the nicest, most loving people who ever lived are mentally retarded. They feel without logic getting in the way of what's really important. Are those challenged people in danger of getting run over by a vehicle more so than you or I? Yes... absolutely.
                          well your missing my point here. Iam not saying animals dont feel, just the opposite, they feel, and its not a controlled thought, they have no concept of happiness, sadness, fear, in terms of its intellectual meaning. it just happens, raw emotional instinct that drives them to do. They have no logical thought process. If you teach a dog that "no" is a good thing, and "yes" he has no idea thats twisted. You teach a dog no by exploting his feelings, like using pain. A dog does something bad and you apply a small amount of pain or fear, he doesnt like it, in a short time he asociates it with the sound of "no". Dogs use pain and fear to dominate others in the pack, they munipulate feelings, not logic, no discussions. So yes they are arrogant in that way.

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                          • #88
                            Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

                            They feel without logic getting in the way of what's really important. Are those challenged people in danger of getting run over by a vehicle more so than you or I? Yes... absolutely.

                            This comment explains why you are having difficulty understanding my point of view. Making decision purely out of emotion will get you in trouble. Embrace your emotional reactions but use logic to think it through, gather the facts then decide.

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                            • #89
                              Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

                              This is no different than humans. If we teach a child that 'no' is good and 'yes' is bad... is that any different? Those are just learned words.

                              When we paddle the behind of a child is that not using pain to teach him what's bad? If we give him a cookie for doing the right thing is that not teaching the child in the same way as rewarding a dog?

                              Humans use pain and fear as control. We also use pleasure as reward to control. That's basic parenting... and animals do the very same thing with their offspring.

                              Bear, you're losing your own argument.


                              Originally posted by Bear64 View Post
                              well your missing my point here. Iam not saying animals dont feel, just the opposite, they feel, and its not a controlled thought, they have no concept of happiness, sadness, fear, in terms of its intellectual meaning. it just happens, raw emotional instinct that drives them to do. They have no logical thought process. If you teach a dog that "no" is a good thing, and "yes" he has no idea thats twisted. You teach a dog no by exploting his feelings, like using pain. A dog does something bad and you apply a small amount of pain or fear, he doesnt like it, in a short time he asociates it with the sound of "no". Dogs use pain and fear to dominate others in the pack, they munipulate feelings, not logic, no discussions. So yes they are arrogant in that way.
                              "We are just statistics, born to consume resources."
                              ~Horace~, 65-8 BC

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: OT. Wild game hunting is BIG business!

                                Regarding farm animals. I know pigs wag their tails when happy and very much enjoy human interaction (the good kind) and I know a small business man / part time farmer who probably has less then a dozen pigs. They thrive in larger pins, have access to the outside, etc. Factory farming animals in not only animal abuse, it's just down right gross.
                                I live in farm country, ive worked on farms, Ive seen "factory farming" up close. Theres nothing wrong with it. Those animals know no difference between a confinment building and fenced pin. Mostly because the cant miss what they dont know. You cant produce quality animals in a hell hole.
                                You see a few politically motivated videos showing a few a holes and your mind runs wild. Its insane

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