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  • crossover simulation software

    Digging deeper into speaker building, I an considering designing my own crossovers. After all I did study engineering before I went into pastoring and preaching... The knowledge must be there somewhere waiting to be picked up.

    So, here is my question: Those of you who design, simulate and test crossovers, what software do you use? What would you recommend to a beginner who is not afraid to spend some time to learn more than just the basics?

    Second question: what web site would you recommend as good reading regarding crossover design?

    Thanks in advance for any answers.
    __________________________________________________ ________
    Thank God the World is bigger than my view of it.

  • #2
    Re: crossover simulation software

    Find a guy by the name of Jeff Bagby and read every paper he writes. Then dive into PCD, PCD, and more PCD.

    http://www.audio.claub.net/software.html
    Some people are addicted to Vicodin. I'm addicted to speaker building.

    The Chorales - Usher 8945A/Vifa XT25TG Build
    ESP Project 101 Lateral MOSFET Amplifier
    LM4780 Parallel Chipamp
    Sonata Soundbar Project
    The Renditions - Active/Passive Towers

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    • #3
      Re: crossover simulation software

      +10000 what Hong said.
      Also if you haven't already, read Speaker Building 201 is a good book to help you get some basic knowledge. Also a mic is mandatory, DATS ( or something similar) is a big help.
      Paul

      The "SB's" build page
      http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...-4-(pic-heavy)

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      • #4
        Re: crossover simulation software

        Originally posted by pastorola View Post
        So, here is my question: Those of you who design, simulate and test crossovers, what software do you use? What would you recommend to a beginner who is not afraid to spend some time to learn more than just the basics?
        The PSD-Lite software at the link in my signature will do most of what can be done in PCD, plus it has integrated box models and measurement file processing. And there are a couple of other good programs that are available (WinPCD and XSim). But if you are looking to understand how the software works, you might want to install PSD-Lite and look at the "Equations" page in the Help menu for the Crossover module. The "Equations" show you the math behind the crossover calculations, and will give you an "engineering" perspective of how these software tools are designed.

        As you already understand from your second question, there is a lot of background material you need to understand in order to use these tools properly, and as Hong points out, Jeff's papers are a good source for understanding that background.
        Free Passive Speaker Designer Lite (PSD-Lite) -- http://www.audiodevelopers.com/Softw...Lite/setup.exe

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        • #5
          Re: crossover simulation software

          Originally posted by pastorola View Post
          Digging deeper into speaker building, I an considering designing my own crossovers. After all I did study engineering before I went into pastoring and preaching... The knowledge must be there somewhere waiting to be picked up.

          So, here is my question: Those of you who design, simulate and test crossovers, what software do you use? What would you recommend to a beginner who is not afraid to spend some time to learn more than just the basics?

          Second question: what web site would you recommend as good reading regarding crossover design?

          Thanks in advance for any answers.

          Unfortunately, there is no primer on how to successfully design/build a XO. There are some books, but to get into XO designing, the best way is to get Jeff Bagby's PCD design tools and start playing around with it. There are tutorials, but the learning curve is what's important. Learn it by using it so to speak, and asking ?'s. Many guys here use it to design incredible speakers, so help is available. I'd start with this:

          https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy

          Read everything under "Resources" at the right. It only takes a few minutes and is a great place to begin. Paul has done an immeasurable service to beginning DIY-ers with that. There are way too many misconceptions and misinformation about speaker building & designing...which stems from the OEMs telling people for decades that it's too complicated to do on your own, so just trust them. Ray Alden's "Speaker Building 201" is also a great starting-out tome. If you're thinking about about Vance Dickason's "LSDC", save it for later when you have a good understanding of the basics and terminology. There's so much good info, but it's geared for experienced builders. Still, a great addition to your speaker building "library".

          Do not be tempted by the seemingly 'easy" ways like pre-made/off-the-shelf XOs. They rely on a textbook method, which assumes that all the drivers are a fixed impedance of 4 or 8 ohms. That is NEVER the case, as any driver's impedance varies across its freq. range. If you plug in 8 ohms in the calculations, but the actual impedance at the cross-point could be 12 or 15 ohms. All the component values are now off and the driver will not be crossing where you thought it would. Stay away from those on-line calculators also. Any method that only asks for the nominal/average impedance as a fixed number and an arbitrary cross-frequency, don't use it. Each compliment of drivers needs a XO that is designed specifically for that combo. But Jeff's programs are an entire "suite" of tools, so dive in and ask questions. It's mostly about the data it needs and how to use said data in the program(s) itself. Don't hesitate to ask, even if it seems "dumb" or redundant. We're here to help and XO design can be very rewarding, but also can be challenging to grasp. If you're familiar with computer programs, overall it'll come easier. Oh, Paul has this on simulations and PCD:

          https://sites.google.com/site/undefi...d-measurements


          John A.
          "Children play with b-a-l-l-s and sticks, men race, and real men race motorcycles"-John Surtees
          Emotiva UPA-2, USP-1, ERC-1 CD
          Yamaha KX-390 HX-Pro
          Pioneer TX-9500 II
          Yamaha YP-211 w/Grado GF3E+
          Statement Monitors
          Vintage system: Yamaha CR-420, Technics SL-PG100, Pioneer CT-F8282, Akai X-1800, Morel(T)/Vifa(W) DIY 2-way in .5 ft3
          Photos: http://custom.smugmug.com/Electronic...#4114714_cGTBx
          Blogs: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=2003

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          • #6
            Re: crossover simulation software

            The best way to do this is to find a DIY partner who can walk you through the whole process, because crossover design is so complex, comprehensive and time consuming. Going at it alone as I did, in retrospect, was not the best thing. After all these years, I still ask stupid questions, and without the guys on this forum, I will still be SOL. Having the right measurement equipment set up in place is the first critical step, as all the software needed for box and crossover modeling is free, but knowing how to use them requires a serious investment in time. Even when you arm yourself with the knowledge from all the books you read, translating it into a concrete process that spits out capacitors, resistors and inductors is not easy. As I said, a DIY partner is critical for your success. Good luck.

            Hong
            Some people are addicted to Vicodin. I'm addicted to speaker building.

            The Chorales - Usher 8945A/Vifa XT25TG Build
            ESP Project 101 Lateral MOSFET Amplifier
            LM4780 Parallel Chipamp
            Sonata Soundbar Project
            The Renditions - Active/Passive Towers

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            • #7
              Re: crossover simulation software

              Helpful input from all you guys, thank you. It remains to be seen how deep I'll dig into this.
              I have been reading quite a lot about Paul's designs over att Undefinition. I have even built a Swope setup (and consider building the Classix II or the Tarkus for a friend some day and maybe the classic Overnight Sensations for my son)
              Once again, thanks!
              __________________________________________________ ________
              Thank God the World is bigger than my view of it.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: crossover simulation software

                Originally posted by neildavis View Post
                The PSD-Lite software at the link in my signature will do most of what can be done in PCD, plus it has integrated box models and measurement file processing. And there are a couple of other good programs that are available (WinPCD and XSim). But if you are looking to understand how the software works, you might want to install PSD-Lite and look at the "Equations" page in the Help menu for the Crossover module. The "Equations" show you the math behind the crossover calculations, and will give you an "engineering" perspective of how these software tools are designed.

                As you already understand from your second question, there is a lot of background material you need to understand in order to use these tools properly, and as Hong points out, Jeff's papers are a good source for understanding that background.

                just downloaded your software and I'm 'getting there' with a basic 3 way design - I haven't inputted any driver graphs yet, just entering the parameters etc.
                one question, how to raise and lower the SPL levels of each driver on the graph? I'm trying to manually mouse tap the green line but don't really understand it..

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: crossover simulation software

                  Originally posted by bill poster View Post
                  I haven't inputted any driver graphs yet, just entering the parameters etc.
                  one question, how to raise and lower the SPL levels of each driver on the graph? I'm trying to manually mouse tap the green line but don't really understand it..
                  The program starts up with "perfect" drivers that are at 8 ohms and 90db. You won't get realistic design data until you overwrite these defaults with actual measurement data, so you need to load to load the frd and zma files for your drivers. Take a look at the User Manual for the Crossover Module (on the Help menu).

                  The green line is the summed response. If you put your cursor in the text box for a series resistance, you should be able to spin the mouse wheel and make the green line follow the summed response. The touch-screen version of the program will bring up a slider that you can use to adjust the values .
                  Free Passive Speaker Designer Lite (PSD-Lite) -- http://www.audiodevelopers.com/Softw...Lite/setup.exe

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: crossover simulation software

                    Originally posted by neildavis View Post
                    The program starts up with "perfect" drivers that are at 8 ohms and 90db. You won't get realistic design data until you overwrite these defaults with actual measurement data, so you need to load to load the frd and zma files for your drivers. Take a look at the User Manual for the Crossover Module (on the Help menu).

                    The green line is the summed response. If you put your cursor in the text box for a series resistance, you should be able to spin the mouse wheel and make the green line follow the summed response. The touch-screen version of the program will bring up a slider that you can use to adjust the values .
                    Forgive a dumb question: where can I find measurement data? I am looking mostly at HiVi woofers right now, and HiVi or Dayton tweeters. Maybe in a distant future I can afford having a bunch of stuff at home to play around with and experiment, but as for now I'd like to find other people's measurement data.
                    __________________________________________________ ________
                    Thank God the World is bigger than my view of it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: crossover simulation software

                      You can look right here:

                      http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/D...D%20files.html
                      Some people are addicted to Vicodin. I'm addicted to speaker building.

                      The Chorales - Usher 8945A/Vifa XT25TG Build
                      ESP Project 101 Lateral MOSFET Amplifier
                      LM4780 Parallel Chipamp
                      Sonata Soundbar Project
                      The Renditions - Active/Passive Towers

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: crossover simulation software

                        Open up the Drivers Module and Select File and then "Open from URL". That will allow you to import data from a small repository of measurement files which includes the RJBaudio files for which Hong provided a link. Just pick one and it will open the file to let you view it plus it will also put that URL in the text box near the "Get FRD" or "Get ZMA" buttons. Click those buttons, and voila...the data is imported directly from the repository.

                        If you need to extract minimum phase, just select the Response Editor from the Tools menu.

                        The repository can also be browsed using a regular web broswer: http://www.audiodevelopers.com/Refer...D_data/FRD.php
                        Free Passive Speaker Designer Lite (PSD-Lite) -- http://www.audiodevelopers.com/Softw...Lite/setup.exe

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                        • #13
                          Re: crossover simulation software

                          Thanks Neil, for your help. Does anyone know a good source of FRD or ZMA files for the satori's?

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                          • #14
                            Re: crossover simulation software

                            Originally posted by bill poster View Post
                            Thanks Neil, for your help. Does anyone know a good source of FRD or ZMA files for the satori's?
                            For drivers of that caliber, you really should be taking your own measurements.
                            "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                            http://www.diy-ny.com/

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                            • #15
                              Re: crossover simulation software

                              Also, (w/out measurement gear) MOST people just trace the mfr. data sheets (fprawn gave us a really cool utility to do that back before Spring). Then you need to adjust the F/Z data curves (files) to your specific box model (alignment, and diffraction), and add your chosen amount of baffle-step.

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