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  • $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...#Controversies

    Maybe he would offer a prize if you could prove capacitors "sound" different too?
    "...this is not a subwoofer" - Jeff Bagby ;)

  • #2
    Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

    Originally posted by critofur View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...#Controversies
    Maybe he would offer a prize if you could prove capacitors "sound" different too?
    'Different' and 'better' aren't the same thing. High resistance/capacitance/inductance cables sound different, but certainly not better. 'Best you can get' cables where resistance/capacitance/inductance are concerned aren't expensive. OTOH some ludicrously priced cables do have poor specs.
    www.billfitzmaurice.com
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    • #3
      Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

      Originally posted by critofur View Post
      https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...#Controversies

      Maybe he would offer a prize if you could prove capacitors "sound" different too?
      There is one particular individual on this forum I know of who demonstrated an ability to discern different caps.
      R = h/(2*pi*m*c) and don't you forget it! || Periodic Table as redrawn by Marshall Freerks and Ignatius Schumacher || King Crimson Radio

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      • #4
        Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

        Yeah, if you read further, the challenge was withdrawn later...

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        • #5
          Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

          The one who howls at night?

          Originally posted by Pete Schumacher View Post
          There is one particular individual on this forum I know of who demonstrated an ability to discern different caps.
          Some people are addicted to Vicodin. I'm addicted to speaker building.

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          • #6
            Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

            Originally posted by Pete Schumacher View Post
            There is one particular individual on this forum I know of who demonstrated an ability to discern different caps.
            With more than one project as well! Recently, the Nephila had a switcher, and most could easily tell that one apart from the other.
            Just ask Rory, JasonP, DanP, etc- they heard it for themselves...

            It's not JUST ME that can....

            Later,
            Wolf
            "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
            "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
            "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
            "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

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            • #7
              Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

              Originally posted by hongrn View Post
              The one who howls at night?
              Especially if I don't know the words!
              Wolf
              "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
              "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
              "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
              "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

              *InDIYana event website*

              Photobucket pages:
              http://photobucket.com/Wolf-Speakers_and_more

              My blog/writeups/thoughts here at PE:
              http://techtalk.parts-express.com/blog.php?u=4102

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              • #8
                Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

                Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                With more than one project as well! Recently, the Nephila had a switcher, and most could easily tell that one apart from the other.
                Just ask Rory, JasonP, DanP, etc- they heard it for themselves...

                It's not JUST ME that can....

                Later,
                Wolf
                I heard it too! Crazy. It has to be the x-over boxes, right?
                "I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus the odds I was doing something incredibly stupid... and I went ahead anyway." - Crow T. Robot

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                • #9
                  Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

                  Originally posted by jon96789 View Post
                  Yeah, if you read further, the challenge was withdrawn later...
                  Specifically, a cable manufacturer that had apparently initially agreed, withdrew:

                  http://archive.randi.org/site/index....challenge.html

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                  • #10
                    Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

                    Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                    With more than one project as well! Recently, the Nephila had a switcher, and most could easily tell that one apart from the other.
                    Just ask Rory, JasonP, DanP, etc- they heard it for themselves...

                    It's not JUST ME that can....

                    Later,
                    Wolf
                    I still don't understand how audible differences in caps wouldn't lead to insanity. After all, discernible differences almost always lead to experimentation and ultimately preferences.

                    I'd imagine that, once a design was being finalized, there would be an overwhelming urge to try cap substitution. And there are so many brand/line choices, and figure multiple caps being used different ways in the xover, it would just seem the possibilities are endless.

                    OTOH, you guys are all a little nutty.

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                    • #11
                      Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

                      Electronics Schoolin, has taught me some simple principles, that bring things more into focus.

                      Resistance/Capacitance/Inductance can mildly vary the signal.

                      There can be no better, only various small amounts of degradation

                      The perfect conductor, is NO conductor. In other words, all the above variables at zero.

                      A one inch conductor stands to reduce losses better than any Mega Dollar cable.

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                      • #12
                        Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

                        Originally posted by Speed Racer View Post
                        I heard it too! Crazy. It has to be the x-over boxes, right?
                        Possibly the fixture itself.

                        At the DCDIY2004 event we had two capacitor tests--one that Bob Cordell brought and the other using a fixture that I made and that Dennis Murphy set up. The one that used my fixture had relays controlled by a three-way switch to select between the three different capacitors, and people were able to casually switch between them and record their preferences. The relays were decent quality (American Zettler AZ733) with the contacts doubled, and are the size typically used for speaker outputs in receivers (10A AC).

                        My fixture also had another switch on the control box that only Dennis and myself tried at that event. That switch engaged a large 40A relay that essentially "shorted" the box for first position, so that instead of going through the relay switching, the signal went directly from the input to the output through the first capacitor. I had put that extra relay in there as a "truth tester" to see whether the relay switching might be causing a voltage drop that could affect the results. When we tried the truth-tester switch, both Dennis and I heard a difference. *sigh*.

                        So I'm not convinced people can hear any difference in capacitors, but I know that people can hear a difference in capacitor test fixtures :rolleyes:

                        My conclusion from that test is that building a high quality test fixture is non-trivial, as any slight amount of resistance can result in an audible voltage drop. Also, some contact materials result in non-linear voltage drops due to arcing through oxidation layers on the silver contacts. When I made a follow-up box with relay switching, I just used the heavier relays throughout. The switch boxes in the picture have 40A relays with very low contact resistance. When the relays change, you can hear the "clunk" all the way across the room.

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                        • #13
                          Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

                          Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                          With more than one project as well! Recently, the Nephila had a switcher, and most could easily tell that one apart from the other.
                          Just ask Rory, JasonP, DanP, etc- they heard it for themselves...

                          It's not JUST ME that can....

                          Later,
                          Wolf
                          Whew, at least you are not like the guys on other forums, that claim to hear "Huge Night and day" differences, between Different cables and Caps.

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                          • #14
                            Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

                            Originally posted by Wolf View Post
                            With more than one project as well! Recently, the Nephila had a switcher, and most could easily tell that one apart from the other.
                            Just ask Rory, JasonP, DanP, etc- they heard it for themselves...

                            It's not JUST ME that can....

                            Later,
                            Wolf
                            Care to share what the caps were that were used?

                            I plan on building the Speedsters and am overlooking pricing from PE through parts, and Meniscus. I see Meniscus uses erse caps. Would it be recommended to go with thr erse caps over dayton caps for a little more?

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                            • #15
                              Re: $1 Million dollar price if you can prove that expensive cables sound better

                              Originally posted by philthien View Post
                              I still don't understand how audible differences in caps wouldn't lead to insanity. After all, discernible differences almost always lead to experimentation and ultimately preferences.

                              I'd imagine that, once a design was being finalized, there would be an overwhelming urge to try cap substitution. And there are so many brand/line choices, and figure multiple caps being used different ways in the xover, it would just seem the possibilities are endless.

                              OTOH, you guys are all a little nutty.
                              That may very well be a door better left closed . I heard the difference when Ben briefly demoed them at Meniscus. I couldn't say which was better or worse, but there was a difference. I think this is where the insanity would set in... IMO, based on what I heard for about 30 seconds, which was better or worse would probably depend on the driver you were using the cap on. What I heard was one cap sounded a teeny bit brighter that the other. Why I discerned it that way is the other question; what is it that was making it sound brighter?

                              So at this stage in the game, I choose to avoid making something that's already hard enough for me even harder (and more expensive) while voicing speakers and only use cheaper caps (Bennic or maybe Solen poly caps); I get close enough to insanity sometimes just swapping out resistors. But, it would be fun to play around on a higher end xover. I do think the only place it would really matter would be the top of the xover (mainly the tweeter). But possibly the mid too, I haven't played with that at all so I couldn't offer any opinion there.

                              Speaker wire OTOH... never in my life heard the difference in speaker wire, I've heard all the debate too. And hopefully no one is offended by that because it's not intended to be an argument, my cousin and one of my best friends is a wire guy (he uses Kimber on his HT system). We agree to disagree. I'm open minded enough to debate it too, but don't be offended if I question the reality of the statements made in favor of spending gobs of money on wire. I do believe a (super duper, minor, almost insignificant) difference in sound can be discerned by swapping wire (and I've never heard it, just basing this belief on all the hearsay), but it couldn't be as easy as throwing money at it. You'd have to know the internals of the amp, speakers, etc before you could know which wire would give you better sound. And since it's so incredibly small to my ears, it's not worth the effort IMHO. And even saying it makes an insignificant difference is just an opinion, I've never personally heard a difference from swapping wire.

                              Edit: I do have fun making speaker wire. Braiding, using Techflex, different ways to terminate the ends, etc. But I look at it like painting a car a different color... it's still the exact same car it just looks better.
                              "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
                              "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

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