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Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

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  • Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

    A few months back I acquired a pair of Dayton B652 Air speakers and grew to like the sound from the little AMT tweeter that came with them. I modded the speaker mostly in the LF section (new woofer, XO, etc) and was very pleased with the result.
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...highlight=b652

    Now, when I'm toying with my Intimates speakers, as I did recently, I rotated the AIR's into my stereo system as backups.

    So, the little AMT's led me to see if I could find some larger ones that would fit the tweeter rebate that has been accommodating in the past to the original SS tweeters and more recently, the Vifa Ring Radiator tweeters. I found the Mundorf AMT model AMT19CM2. 1-C with 104 mm flange fit nicely into my cabinets.

    I know I had a challenge on my hands with the mismatch in SPL eff. between the AMT's and the SS 15W revelator bass/mid (93 vs 84.5 dB) and relatively high recommended crossover point of 2,300 hz. Madisound recommends this tweeter for 3-way designs and offers larger ones for 2-way use. But, I was determined to make the 19CM2's work.

    As I have done in the past, I mounted the new tweeter into one cabinet and ran connector wires out thru the vent tube from both the tweeter and bass/mid. After a week or so of tinkering, I was able to patch together an external XO at about 2,300 hz with 2nd order LP and HP and, of course an L-Pad for attenuation. Below are a few Omni-mic tests of the final result. The FR's are on axis and HD is 3rd order.

    Click image for larger version

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    I know there are those who don't care for ribbon tweeters, but I like these and the overall sound of the speakers now in its 3rd generation.
    A couple of minor gripes about this relatively expensive tweeter. The connectors at the back are tab type for push on female connectors. However, they are very thick and one must open up the female connectors a little so they slide on without any breakage of the connection at the back of the tweeter. The second thing is they provide screws with the tweeters but I don't recommend their use. The are countersunk type (no problem with that) but their drive hole is a very small hex socket. If you don't pre-drill the screw holes in the cabinet just the right size, the hex socket can be easily stripped when applying sufficient torque on an allen wrench to get that last few turns of the screw to sock it properly down flush with the face plate.
    Last edited by carlspeak; 07-24-2015, 03:47 PM.
    Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

  • #2
    Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

    Nice addition, AMT's do have a nice sound to them. What they aren't is a true ribbon tweeter. That should be your next move.
    A mains
    The Ventures
    Open Invit8tions
    RSR
    Sound Troopers
    Acorns
    442
    DGBG's
    The Monuments

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    • #3
      Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

      Originally posted by 6thplanet View Post
      Nice addition, AMT's do have a nice sound to them. What they aren't is a true ribbon tweeter. That should be your next move.
      Do they make a Raal with a 104 mm round flange? :eek:
      Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

        Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
        Do they make a Raal with a 104 mm round flange? :eek:
        The Russian Viawave RT850 ribbon tweeter has a 104 mm round flange. The flange is 6.5 mm thick.
        http://translate.google.com/translat...u/&prev=search

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        • #5
          Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

          Originally posted by timw View Post
          The Russian Viawave RT850 ribbon tweeter has a 104 mm round flange. The flange is 6.5 mm thick.
          http://translate.google.com/translat...u/&prev=search
          Thanks for the suggestion but that tweeter has a pretty large a^^ end that will intefere with my vent. Min XO is even higher than the challenge I had with the Mundorf. Also believe these are hard to get. I recall now looking into it awhile back at the suggestion of Roman.
          Another think about the Mundorf AMT that attracted me was that it's built like a tank and is rated a 100 W continuous power. Most ribbons I have looked at are very delicate and can handle only limited power.
          I did use a Fountek NeoCD3.0 in a highly modded KLH 17 a few years back.
          Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

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          • #6
            Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

            I'd be interested to see the FR of that Mundorf unit at different levels. All of the AMTs from which I have seen that data (eg Goldenear, Martin Logan) have been trash. Andrew Jones also commented on the Home Theater Geeks podcast that most of them aren't very good.
            --
            "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

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            • #7
              Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

              Originally posted by Pallas View Post
              I'd be interested to see the FR of that Mundorf unit at different levels. All of the AMTs from which I have seen that data (eg Goldenear, Martin Logan) have been trash. Andrew Jones also commented on the Home Theater Geeks podcast that most of them aren't very good.
              One of the most popular criticisms of ribbons is their less than spectacular vertical dispersion. I didn't bother taking any knowing they probably would not be special. However, it's of no interest to me anyway. I mostly listen to the Intimates with the tweeters at ear level sitting in my easy chair.
              Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

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              • #8
                Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

                Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                One of the most popular criticisms of ribbons is their less than spectacular vertical dispersion.
                Criticism? I thought that was regarded as a virtue by ribbon aficionados.
                Click here for Jeff Bagby's Loudspeaker Design Software

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                • #9
                  Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

                  Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                  One of the most popular criticisms of ribbons is their less than spectacular vertical dispersion.
                  But that criticism had nothing to do with the words to which you ostensibly replied...though on second reading I can sorta/kinda see how you interpreted my post as such.

                  I meant different SPL. Look at the linearity-with-level measurements of the Goldenear speakers on soundstage.com. Those measurements expose their AMT tweeter as lo fi hardware.
                  --
                  "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

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                  • #10
                    Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

                    Originally posted by Pallas View Post
                    But that criticism had nothing to do with the words to which you ostensibly replied...though on second reading I can sorta/kinda see how you interpreted my post as such.

                    I meant different SPL. Look at the linearity-with-level measurements of the Goldenear speakers on soundstage.com. Those measurements expose their AMT tweeter as lo fi hardware.
                    Aaahh, so level being SPL rather than angle. Now I understand.

                    Have you personally listened to any of those 'trash' speaker+AMT tweeters Pallas?
                    I only posted my measurements here because the reading base is technically savvy and might appreciate them or see something I missed.
                    Perhaps I should bring my Intimates to the NRC to see how they fare in that all important linearity test, Rather, I'll refer you to another thread I am responsible for here at PETT.... http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...ht=stereophile
                    JA doesn't include linearity in his routine measurements but just a quick look at the LS3/5a FR's and most would think they are 'trash' as well.... but many evidently don't agree with that assessment and I'm not referring to the Stereophile reviewer.

                    The NRC's tests and Mr. Jones' opinions aside, I stand by the improved sound of my Intimates brought on by the AMT tweeters. That's the bottom line, not measurements.
                    Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

                      Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                      Have you personally listened to any of those 'trash' speaker+AMT tweeters Pallas?
                      Yes, a couple pairs of Goldenears, which I consider Bose for audiophools. I came away marveling that Sandy Gross could get reviewers to hype speakers with that mediocre sound and build quality for such comparatively high prices.
                      (They don't even bother with finishing; most of a Goldenear speaker is grill cloth! I can understand an expensive speaker that's a bad acoustic design but beautifully and expensively finished. An expensive speaker that's a bad acoustic design and a housecat's wet dream blows my mind.)

                      I've also "heard" some of the Martin Logans, but only as background noise in a Best Buy. Nothing that made me want to take a closer listen.

                      Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                      Perhaps I should bring my Intimates to the NRC to see how they fare in that all important linearity test,
                      You don't think it's useful or important for a speaker to reproduce dynamics faithfully?

                      As for the flippant NRC comment, given that we're talking about difference measurements it should be clear to anyone with experience taking audio measurements that the initial conditions aren't that important. What's needed is just a source that can reliably alter drive level. (Yes, the absolute levels will be different than in a chamber, but the trends will remain.)

                      Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                      JA doesn't include linearity in his routine measurements but just a quick look at the LS3/5a FR's and most would think they are 'trash' as well.... but many evidently don't agree with that assessment and I'm not referring to the Stereophile reviewer.
                      Show me a blind listening test where an LS3/5a is preferred over, say, a Behringer Truth or one of those new cheap JBL studio monitors, and maybe I'll care.

                      I'm sure they were great in 1965 or whatever, and I guess it's nice that somebody is slavishly copying them for nostalgic boomers and younger retro fans, but honestly so what? Do you honestly think a design with the LS3/5a's performance that entered use in 2015 would attract any attention at all? It's like a 1960s Mustang. Never handled that well, rides like a lorry, and even the most powerful ones are out-dragged today by common sedans. But people still like them and want them. So it is with the LS3/5a. It's an historic icon, not a high performance loudspeaker.

                      Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                      The NRC's tests and Mr. Jones' opinions aside, I stand by the improved sound of my Intimates brought on by the AMT tweeters. That's the bottom line, not measurements.
                      For you, and only applicable to you. The issue is that without a common language (measurements) that doesn't help anyone else.
                      --
                      "Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

                        Originally posted by Pallas View Post
                        Yes, a couple pairs of Goldenears, which I consider Bose for audiophools. I came away marveling that Sandy Gross could get reviewers to hype speakers with that mediocre sound and build quality for such comparatively high prices.
                        (They don't even bother with finishing; most of a Goldenear speaker is grill cloth! I can understand an expensive speaker that's a bad acoustic design but beautifully and expensively finished. An expensive speaker that's a bad acoustic design and a housecat's wet dream blows my mind.)

                        I've also "heard" some of the Martin Logans, but only as background noise in a Best Buy. Nothing that made me want to take a closer listen.



                        You don't think it's useful or important for a speaker to reproduce dynamics faithfully?

                        As for the flippant NRC comment, given that we're talking about difference measurements it should be clear to anyone with experience taking audio measurements that the initial conditions aren't that important. What's needed is just a source that can reliably alter drive level. (Yes, the absolute levels will be different than in a chamber, but the trends will remain.)



                        Show me a blind listening test where an LS3/5a is preferred over, say, a Behringer Truth or one of those new cheap JBL studio monitors, and maybe I'll care.

                        I'm sure they were great in 1965 or whatever, and I guess it's nice that somebody is slavishly copying them for nostalgic boomers and younger retro fans, but honestly so what? Do you honestly think a design with the LS3/5a's performance that entered use in 2015 would attract any attention at all? It's like a 1960s Mustang. Never handled that well, rides like a lorry, and even the most powerful ones are out-dragged today by common sedans. But people still like them and want them. So it is with the LS3/5a. It's an historic icon, not a high performance loudspeaker.



                        For you, and only applicable to you. The issue is that without a common language (measurements) that doesn't help anyone else.
                        Pallas, I truthful feel sorry for you. you must be one unhappy individual.
                        craigk

                        " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

                          I do think its weird that most AMT's measure pretty "wonky" yet sound pretty good.
                          A mains
                          The Ventures
                          Open Invit8tions
                          RSR
                          Sound Troopers
                          Acorns
                          442
                          DGBG's
                          The Monuments

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

                            Originally posted by carlspeak View Post
                            Do they make a Raal with a 104 mm round flange? :eek:
                            Yes they do actually! The 64-10.
                            However, they need to be crossed no lower than 3kHz and unfortunately they're only oem, even though I'm sure you can get hold of a pair...
                            "It is only Scrooge McDuck and others with a personality disorder who have money as their goal"

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                            • #15
                              Re: Intimates newest update with Mundorf AMT tweeters

                              Originally posted by 6thplanet View Post
                              Nice addition, AMT's do have a nice sound to them. What they aren't is a true ribbon tweeter. That should be your next move.
                              Would you say AMTs have the more dynamic sound ? Its just a criticism I read about, having said that there a few ribbons which might offer that (Viawaves/Fountek3.5)

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