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"House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

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  • Re: Olde Glass Platitude

    So does "House sound" = "House Curve"? I used to build a lot of speakers back in the dark ages, and was generally pleased with the results back then. Then a long lag on speaker building with having a wife, kids, house, job, etc etc. Last few years I've been working on my first build in a couple decades, have stumbled into the whole new realm of design tools available today. I'm using totally active XO, and managed to achieve relatively good (flat) measured response only to find I really didn't like how that sounded all that much. So I then started playing around with house curves, and have gotten the whole thing sounding pretty good to my 58 year old ears. This is a bit disconcerting given I'm sure my ears are lacking as compared to how they performed 30 some odd years ago....
    Last edited by DougK; 08-30-2015, 10:33 PM.

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    • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

      Cooking is even more fun than speaker building. Even before I quit smoking, I was overwhelmed with powerfully flavored foods - stuff like broccoli, raw tomatoes, etc were too much. Since I quit smoking, everything tastes and smells even more than before. I love to cook, and I am very good at it - but I consider myself unable to fully appreciate most foods in the world because they taste too strong. Since a young man, I have been able to pick out small odors and flavors in things - smoking may have been a way for me to dull my sense of smell and taste to enjoy a wider palette of flavors. It has prevented me from enjoying a large spectrum of beer styles, as well. I am convinced that my sense of taste is too acute to ever be a full time chef or food/wine beverage critic.

      I suspect hearing is subjected to similar ranges, and obviously age is a major consideration. I would be very curious to see exhaustive studies correlating age with acceptability of single driver full range systems, for example. We all know that one person who will eat anything - odds are, that person simply has a very limited sense of taste and not an endless sense of adventure.
      Don't listen to me - I have not sold any $150,000 speakers.

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      • Made Chili yesterday

        Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post
        Not sure how many car guys are here, but I think of voicing speakers kind of like dialing in a new carbureted engine you just built. You don't just drop the motor in the engine bay and go, you need to adjust the timing, idle/air mixture, etc. The fact that you have to do that doesn't mean you screwed it up when you built the engine, it's all part of the build. Not sure where pretension falls into it though.

        Cooking is definitely a great analogy. While we all have to start with a recipe, I've never been afraid to toss a mushroom in somewhere even if the recipe didn't call for it. Now we can argue over whether or not adding mushrooms to a recipe now makes it yours, but I'll leave that one to the lawyers, I honestly don't care either way. It's kind of like making chili, and even taking your chili to a chili cookoff and winning an award for your chili. You didn't invent chili, you "seasoned it to taste" and that's what made it win. If that's pretentious, I guess it is what it is. And just like with cooking, when you're building speakers you can either buy a kit and follow the recipe verbatim, or you can tweak the kit to your liking, or you can buy drivers and build something that's all yours. Doesn't mean you invented speakers, just means you designed/built a pair that sound the way you want them to.

        And maybe I totally missed your point. Are you saying you don't "season to taste"? That you should just follow a recipe?
        I suppose to follow an auto analogy - a little like the kind of ride and handling one desires.
        ( air shocks and adjustable suspension anyone...)

        I Do season to taste, and restaurants provide condiments.
        And while I've consistently made Pizza that got compliments; I didn't call myself Chef and go into mass production
        I've know "foodies" that get ruffled if someone dares to alter food protocol.
        "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
        “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
        "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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        • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

          Yes but, those chefs all started somewhere too. I don't think I'll ever go into loudspeaker production, I do alright and actually kind of enjoy what I do now. But I still love building speakers that sound the way I want them to.
          "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
          "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

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          • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

            I'm not sure this is what others call voicing *...
            Being aware that ALL the components used in a speaker build have manufactured tolerances, then there is a process of dealing with that. Particularly in a conjugate circuit.
            For a manufacturer - it is consistency of a finished product often from OEM parts, facing variances in batches of outsourced parts.
            Affirming that the finished product is representative of a design with desired and sometimes stated performance parameters.

            * What performance aspects are affected by the modifications undertaken during Voicing...
            Comparative levels (balance) across the music spectrum? Dispersion? Extension? etc.
            "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
            “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
            "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

            Comment


            • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

              Originally posted by dlr View Post
              Your post was filled with hostility, anyone reading it would recognize that, including implications in this post as well that are unwarranted. You infer way too much, including in your response above. I'm frankly puzzled by your hostility.

              dlr
              Agreed.
              Originally posted by craigk View Post
              you sound like a con in prison with this statement, like this is your game, you are wearing it out using it so much. anyone that does not agree with you is instantly labeled hostile. yet in your arrogance you can demean and belittle all the DIY community at once. go back and read your statements. any person reading this would be turned off instantly from any DIY projects. you make it sound like it is impossible for anyone to achieve any kind of remotely descent sound from a diy speaker project. your post are not about advancing DIY, they are about impressing the masses with your intelligence. you can play your game but there are lots of others that feel the same way I do. I just am willing to type what the others think and will not.
              Given how much dlr has contributed to DIY, I would say the opposite is true. His posts come off as objective or impartial observations, whereas yours come off as highly emotional and overly defensive. The con reference is pretty insulting as well.
              "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

              http://www.diy-ny.com/

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              • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                I was pretty insulted by the hostile comment as well. And apparently you have no clue as to what the con comment is referring to.
                craigk

                " Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas

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                • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                  Originally posted by Face View Post
                  Agreed.
                  Given how much dlr has contributed to DIY, I would say the opposite is true. His posts come off as objective or impartial observations, whereas yours come off as highly emotional and overly defensive. The con reference is pretty insulting as well.
                  +1
                  Live in Southern N.E.? check out the CT Audio Society web site.

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                  • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                    Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                    I'm not sure this is what others call voicing *...
                    Being aware that ALL the components used in a speaker build have manufactured tolerances, then there is a process of dealing with that. Particularly in a conjugate circuit.
                    For a manufacturer - it is consistency of a finished product often from OEM parts facing variances in batches of outsourced parts.

                    * What performance aspects are affected by the modifications undertaken during Voicing...
                    Comparative levels across the music spectrum? Dispersion? Extension? etc.
                    We all have to deal with specs that are off, that's where DATS comes in handy.

                    For me, voicing means I can take a 4" midrange and make it play 30 Hz signals at 120 db... totally kidding . All it usually means in a TM is a resistor swap to put the tweeter level at a point that I like it. Whether that ends up a mild dip from the xover point of that midwoofer and tweeter up to 20khz or it stays flat depends on how much I like the tweeter. But, I've also been in a situation where I tried to "voice" a MTM, and found that no matter what I did I couldn't get the tweeter to mesh with the midwoofer the way I wanted, so a new tweeter was used and a totally different xover.

                    I really don't have much experience with a 3 way, but in the one I'm doing now I have found that while the design is harder to do than a TM, there are a lot more possibilities for "voicing" to get what you're after simply because there's more speakers to adjust. You can adjust the woofer's sound with the port, pad the mid, pad the tweeter, plus manipulate the xover points more.

                    So in the end, voicing can definitely have a large effect on the measurements but usually just means a couple db here or there.
                    "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
                    "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

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                    • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                      I'm brought to mind of the articles* by Joe D'Appolitto that attempted to correlate measurements of the many performance aspects with listener preferences, and of course that are things that can't be addressed by changing passive components post amplification.
                      Is BSC tuning considered voicing...

                      * http://audioxpress.com/files/dappolito2959.pdf
                      http://audioxpress.com/files/dappolito2960.pdf
                      "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                      “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
                      "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                      Comment


                      • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                        Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                        I'm brought to mind of the articles by Joe D'Appolitto that attempted to correlate measurements of the many performance aspects with listener preferences, and of course that are things that can't be addressed by changing passive components post amplification.
                        Is BSC tuning considered voicing...
                        To be completely honest I don't really understand the huge emphasis with BSC, and that might just be my lack of knowing and/or experience. I understand what it is, but as far as I know that generally just ends up being a resistor swap to the best of my knowledge. You'll hear it if your tweeter is screaming over the mid and you can usually fix that with a resistor.

                        I will say that the fact that I rarely ever read articles by guys like Toole, Joe D'Appolitto, etc made this super hard for me. Coming in here and learning what people were referring to when they dropped all the darn acronyms here was like learning a foreign language. That's not to say they're wrong or I have anything against them, I just never gleaned much by attempting to understand what in the world they were saying because I don't speak a lot of the "speaker builder" vernacular. I've always been more of a "just do it" kinda guy.
                        "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
                        "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

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                        • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                          I'm sure you have encountered builds that pleased the builder but not you.
                          Isn't really a single device that can point to a recipe ( or speaker ) and indicate Taste preference.
                          It is interesting that people will appreciate differences in Music Taste but not so in the manner of Music reproduction.
                          "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                          “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
                          "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                          Comment


                          • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                            At least during the mid-century reputable speaker manufacturers had "house sound". AR, JBL, KEF all sounded quite different and were easily recognizable. It was something to do the voicing or octave-to-octave balance because they had to do a lot of listening to fine-tune their finished products. Maybe with the availability of measuring and crossover softwares, today's diy speakers all tend to converge into one kind of sound Just kidding!
                            Seriously, the most difficult part in my DIY speakers is trying to make them sound good on both poor and pristine quality programs.

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                            • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                              Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post
                              To be completely honest I don't really understand the huge emphasis with BSC, and that might just be my lack of knowing and/or experience. I understand what it is, but as far as I know that generally just ends up being a resistor swap to the best of my knowledge. You'll hear it if your tweeter is screaming over the mid and you can usually fix that with a resistor..
                              Without BSC, you will have thin bass, whether you pad the tweeter to compensate for level or not.

                              The basic curve for a 4" in an enclosure will look similar to this:


                              The tweeter will possibly look like this:


                              The bottom end droop applied to a woofer's stock curve will basically give it a rising response. Using a larger LP coil than typically thought will tilt the response downward to a more flat result. This is why you lose between 4 and 6dB consistently when you use BSC on a woofer. The closer to the floor, the less the tilt will be required since the room will fill in the lowend. The peak before rolloff is sometimes requiring a notch to flatten the curve completely.

                              The response of the tweeter applied will sometimes require a damped topology to reduce the peak in the rolloff, or a higher order or even a notch, and then the level with a resistor.

                              So if you see- it's much more than just a resistor fix in most cases.
                              Later,
                              Wolf
                              "Wolf, you shall now be known as "King of the Zip ties." -Pete00t
                              "Wolf and speakers equivalent to Picasso and 'Blue'" -dantheman
                              "He is a true ambassador for this forum and speaker DIY in general." -Ed Froste
                              "We're all in this together, so keep your stick on the ice!" - Red Green aka Steve Smith

                              *InDIYana event website*

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                              • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                                Yeah... I actually typed "or maybe a coil" when I gave my original response but erased it cuz I assumed no matter what, someone would gladly point out the incompleteness of my original statement. Thanks for the clarity Ben.
                                "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
                                "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

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