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"House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

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  • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

    Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post
    To be completely honest I don't really understand the huge emphasis with BSC,...
    That is a more modern concern ( post 80's I've been told ).
    Diffraction ( in it's various forms ) has long been of particular interest to me.
    Fortunately In-wall placement resolved that :D
    "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
    “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
    "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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    • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

      And the answer is, I have to listen to these and I want them to sound good to............ME.
      Kenny

      http://www.diy-ny.com/
      DIY NY/NJ 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGwA...ature=youtu.be
      Man does not live by measurements alone, a little music helps.

      Comment


      • Bow to your Sensei !!!

        Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post
        ... I assumed no matter what, someone would gladly point out the incompleteness of my original statement. ...
        Having a shared appreciation for the film and forgiving my warped sense of humor:
        "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
        “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
        "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

        Comment


        • Re: Olde Glass Platitude

          Originally posted by DougK View Post
          So does "House sound" = "House Curve"?... snip...
          I think so Doug, I think that's really the crux of the debate too. I'm sure some of the more "affluent in the terms" guys here can go deeper, but that's the gist of it for me.

          While, like you, over the years my taste in speakers has changed, before I got into building home audio speakers I used to prefer Polk Audio speakers, while some like JBL, some like Infinity, KEF, Tannoy, etc. Some like a mild smiley face style curve, some prefer razor flat, some like the mids pulled out a little, some like bright speakers, etc. That doesn't mean they're wrong if I disagree, it just means... that I'm right
          "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
          "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

          Comment


          • Re: Olde Glass Platitude

            Originally posted by mattsk8 View Post
            before I got into building home audio speakers I used to prefer Polk Audio speakers, while some like JBL, some like Infinity, KEF, Tannoy, etc. Some like a mild smiley face style curve, some prefer razor flat, some like the mids pulled out a little, some like bright speakers, etc. That doesn't mean they're wrong if I disagree, it just means... that I'm right
            I use a few hifi forums and every speaker divides opinions. There are a number of reasons for this, but probably the biggest one is the room. A speaker in one room can sound like there is no bass, and yet in another, you'll be wondering where the subwoofer is hidden! - For anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating - I'm not.

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            • Da Room, Da Room

              Originally posted by fatmarley View Post
              the room...For anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating - I'm not.
              You're not .
              That was a point of agreement in this thread.
              All one has to do is take a speaker outside to hear the difference.
              Anechoic chambers were built to eliminate measurement contamination.
              That doesn't imply that DIY measurements are pointless however.
              "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
              “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
              "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

              Comment


              • Re: Olde Glass Platitude

                Originally posted by fatmarley View Post
                I use a few hifi forums and every speaker divides opinions. There are a number of reasons for this, but probably the biggest one is the room. A speaker in one room can sound like there is no bass, and yet in another, you'll be wondering where the subwoofer is hidden! - For anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating - I'm not.
                I experience this almost every time I take a speaker project to a DIY event. The bass and overall balance sound a little different than they do in my living room or family room.
                Craig

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                • Re: Olde Glass Platitude

                  Originally posted by fatmarley View Post
                  I use a few hifi forums and every speaker divides opinions. There are a number of reasons for this, but probably the biggest one is the room. A speaker in one room can sound like there is no bass, and yet in another, you'll be wondering where the subwoofer is hidden! - For anyone who thinks I'm exaggerating - I'm not.
                  Good call. I should either treat my garage, or do my voicing elsewhere. The issue is, my wife would strangle me if I did this in the house, it annoys her enough when I do it in the garage :p.

                  I wonder how much of it is related to how we grew up too. I was raised with stereos, so I had a father and an uncle telling me how things should sound at a very early age. Both of them are bass heads that listen loud. So naturally... . I remember the first time I saw a powered subwoofer in the living room and thinking, "why in the world did it take so long to figure that out?" :D
                  "The ability of any system to produce exceptional sound will be limited mainly by the capability of the speakers" Jim Salk
                  "Audio is surely a journey full of revelations as you go" JasonP

                  Comment


                  • Re: Olde Glass Platitude

                    Originally posted by DougK View Post
                    So does "House sound" = "House Curve"?
                    The 'house curve" usually means the ungated frequency response of a room or venue, with all reflections included, when driven by a speaker with a flat frequency response. The usual curve is downward-sloping because higher frequencies are subject to more loss during reflections from walls, ceiling and floor etc.

                    Most people here use time gating to remove room effects as much as possible, so their measurements are primarily first-arrival without reflections. That doesn't mean the the reflections make no difference to the ultimate sound, just that they will make speaker development very difficult if they are not excluded.

                    Some reading:

                    http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru....html#post1306
                    Francis

                    Comment


                    • Re: Olde Glass Platitude

                      Originally posted by PWR RYD View Post
                      I experience this almost every time I take a speaker project to a DIY event. The bass and overall balance sound a little different than they do in my living room or family room.
                      Same here. My living room is a bass black hole compared to the large area where DIY NY and the Iron Driver competitions are held. I either need to plug ports or voice on the thin side for something to sound balanced outside of my room.
                      "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche

                      http://www.diy-ny.com/

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                      • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                        Hi Dave,

                        Thanks for replying, hope you're doing well

                        Originally posted by dlr View Post
                        I agree with regard to the W/M in a 3-way, but for a M/T for W/T, we can get good enough results with MLS/FFT; ....below about 1K is in many situations missing a lot the anomalies, agreed...But I don't think that affects the crossover Fc area of anything other than a W/M
                        I agree with you, good point. The FFT window causes frequency domain smoothing. With standard 8 to 9 foot ceilings, the best case window before reflection is 4 to 4.5 ms. This limits frequency resolution to ~ 225 to 250Hz. So at 250Hz, it almost like 1 octave smoothing; at 1kHz the FFT windowing acts like 1/4 octave smoothing, 2 kHz, 1/8 octave smoothing etc. Well into the mid range the smoothing could be understating the depth of nulls or the height of peaks, if they exist.

                        Originally posted by dlr View Post
                        Which is why I mounted my mic capsule on a long copper tube, supported by a PVC pipe mounted on a camera tripod with full felt coverage
                        I use a long wand as well. I did try poly around the wand/stand junction and there weren't any improvements but I'll revisit again next time I do measures, thanks for the heads up

                        Originally posted by dlr View Post
                        Given my experience with the camera trip (very small reflective area), I suspect that the ladder had more reflections that you may have considered
                        I attached a picture of a set up I tried this weekend for the first time. I know Lipshitz and Vanderkooy measured with a very similar ladder set up in their lab; when John was developing MLSSA he had industry types in that he would perform measurements for. But, I don't know if they investigated the impact of the ladder. If I get time, I'll look into it (I made a note). I did set it up so the steep side without the steps was facing the mic, so that should help.

                        I typically measure indoors on a raised ironing board and it works very well. Once tried measuring with the speaker on a milk crate, thinking it may be porous enough but it created a significant amount of "measured" bdc as if it was almost solid

                        Originally posted by dlr View Post
                        I wish that I lived in an area where I could easily to outdoor measurements, primarily for the W/M, though.
                        I consider my place quiet on the weekend but I was really surprised how loud far-off airplanes or cars could be when trying to measure. Other weird obstacles were crows responding every time I turned on the MLS signal or squirrels running through bushes for cover. And it must have driven the neighbours crazy. I run 8 averages to help suppress background noise and it seemed to work pretty well. I didn't have time to really tweak the set up as a neighbour was starting a back yard get together so I packed up shop.

                        Originally posted by dlr View Post
                        I think this may be only partially true. IME, voicing has more to do with getting the tweeter balanced with the system and in adding my preferred "house sound", that being a more recessed sound that can sometimes be achieved by adding a slight droop in the 1-3K area. There are no series measurements issues with this other than incomplete measurements such as when one only measures and designs on one axis. Even with a full set of measurements, this sort of voicing is not reliant as much on the measurements.
                        I totally agree, dominating voicing is balancing drivers and their directivity, and adding your favourite spice (I like a very open sound which to my ear tends to be counter to ``forward``). I wasn`t stating that measurement accuracy dominates, just that it`s another factor to consider in general (that`s why I put my own measurements up, showing how it affects my measurements).

                        Originally posted by dlr View Post
                        How much might a typical mic capsule change? I've taken drivers that I measured on my 2m x 2m baffle, remounted them years later and found that the measurement was almost identical, in absolute terms as well. This was with LAUD that normalizes the measurement. With current mics, I would lay odds that a driver will wander more over time than a mic, but that's just an assumption on my part.
                        In absolute sensitivity, by dBs, but in frequency response, I don`t know, I guess it depends on the mic and how its used. I do remember a long time back sending B&K 4133 and 4165 mics (very high quality and expensive bits) back to B&K for calibration and the cal curve could come back easily 1 dB different above about 6 khz. I also remember both Dennis Murphy and Jeff commenting in the past that they found their mics out of calibration (response) and sent them for calibration

                        Originally posted by dlr View Post
                        Near field techniques also have specific limitations.
                        Upper frequency is limited by the break up; near field may not show the proper far field acoustic response if the break up is non uniform over the driver surface.

                        Near field is great for looking for response anomalies below 1kHz that may get smoothed over by the FFT window.

                        PS, I sent you a PM

                        Dave
                        Attached Files

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                        • Re: Olde Glass Platitude

                          Originally posted by fpitas View Post
                          The 'house curve" usually means the ungated frequency response of a room or venue, with all reflections included, when driven by a speaker with a flat frequency response. The usual curve is downward-sloping because higher frequencies are subject to more loss during reflections from walls, ceiling and floor etc.

                          Most people here use time gating to remove room effects as much as possible, so their measurements are primarily first-arrival without reflections. That doesn't mean the the reflections make no difference to the ultimate sound, just that they will make speaker development very difficult if they are not excluded.

                          Some reading:

                          http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru....html#post1306
                          Thanks for the link, I spent a bunch of time researching the 'house curve' so Wayne's posts came up early in my search. Thanks again Wayne!

                          Comment


                          • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                            Originally posted by DDF View Post
                            I use a long wand as well. I did try poly around the wand/stand junction and there weren't any improvements but I'll revisit again next time I do measures, thanks for the heads up

                            I attached a picture of a set up I tried this weekend for the first time.
                            what's the extension from the mic arm there? is it a gooseneck extension and then the mic is strapped/taped to that extension?

                            I tried something similar at the weekend which definitely gave a useful uptick in resolution over measuring in my lounge. I thought I might need to do something about the mic stand itself though to improve it further.

                            Click image for larger version

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                            • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                              Originally posted by DDF View Post
                              Thanks for replying, hope you're doing well.
                              Doing well, thanks, hope that you are, too.

                              I agree with you, good point. The FFT window causes frequency domain smoothing. With standard 8 to 9 foot ceilings, the best case window before reflection is 4 to 4.5 ms. This limits frequency resolution to ~ 225 to 250Hz. So at 250Hz, it almost like 1 octave smoothing; at 1kHz the FFT windowing acts like 1/4 octave smoothing, 2 kHz, 1/8 octave smoothing etc. Well into the mid range the smoothing could be understating the depth of nulls or the height of peaks, if they exist.
                              I hadn't thought of if being effectively a type of octave smoothing, but it makes sense.

                              You've got a good mic support, probably works better than my use of a tripod. I've never been able to raise mine higher than a good speaker stand, since I do it indoors. If I could get outside, I think that I'd still splice to an indoor measurement since I can get an absolute measurement with LAUD. I'd splice the low end at around 1.5K. That might eliminate the worst reflections that you get from the ladder. This would also include any driver surround resonance issues that are iffy when done indoors.

                              I know Lipshitz and Vanderkooy measured with a very similar ladder set up in their lab; when John was developing MLSSA he had industry types in that he would perform measurements for. But, I don't know if they investigated the impact of the ladder.
                              I would be surprised if they didn't, but since he pioneered the process, whatever they did was a big improvement.

                              If I get time, I'll look into it (I made a note).
                              Comparative results would be good to see.

                              Once tried measuring with the speaker on a milk crate, thinking it may be porous enough but it created a significant amount of "measured" bdc as if it was almost solid.
                              I've been surprised at how much reflection gets into the impulse with what seems benign. It's a bit like the diffraction that a nearby driver makes. Most designers focus on the box edges, but a nearby driver is often worse. But a huge woofer in a 3-way has almost no impact.

                              I run 8 averages to help suppress background noise and it seemed to work pretty well.
                              I started doing that, too, when I found the option to do that automatically in LAUD. An average of 8 measurements should reduce background noise by 8db I believe. It also doesn't take much longer, either. Indoors, though, I usually don't see much difference from a single MLS measurement in my fairly quiet basement.

                              I totally agree, dominating voicing is balancing drivers and their directivity.
                              I suppose that's more important than I considered in my response. Directivity can be a huge problem. I think of that more to be the early part of design, then tweaking/voicing being smaller changes rather than an Fc/slope change to help the integration.

                              I do remember a long time back sending B&K 4133 and 4165 mics (very high quality and expensive bits) back to B&K for calibration and the cal curve could come back easily 1 dB different above about 6 khz. I also remember both Dennis Murphy and Jeff commenting in the past that they found their mics out of calibration (response) and sent them for calibration.
                              Given how mic capsules are constructed, it surprises me that they might change that much. My experience is limited to Panasonic mic capsules, so far they've held up well, but I can't vouch for them in absolute terms

                              dlr
                              WinPCD - Windows .NET Passive Crossover Designer

                              Dave's Speaker Pages

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                              • Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?

                                Originally posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
                                what's the extension from the mic arm there? is it a gooseneck extension and then the mic is strapped/taped to that extension?

                                I tried something similar at the weekend which definitely gave a useful uptick in resolution over measuring in my lounge. I thought I might need to do something about the mic stand itself though to improve it further.

                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]59907[/ATTACH]
                                Move the speaker and mic away from the fence another 5 or 6 feet.

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