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"House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?
You get a gold star. When people talk about flat frequency response they are thinking one dimensionally. A speaker may be flat on one axis and have real problems off axis. I try to take that into consideration. As a result, over the years, I have developed a particular "recipe " in crossover design that I have found to sound the most natural and coherent to me. I tend to use this recipe in most of my designs. From the older Continuum to the new Spirit Wind the crossover approach is very similar, and this is case for most speakers in between.
Two speakers may have the identical on-axis response, but differences in crossover point, slopes, phase tracking, and the tonal balance of the power response will make them sound very different. In my case, most of my speakers share these design characteristics so they tend to sound very similar.
Wolf and I cook with very different recipes, as an example, so even if both of us target a flat axial response our speakers will likely still sound different , and each will reflect our individual design methods.
In addition to all of this, some people prefer a speaker that has a warmer balance while someone else may like one that is brighter and airier. How baffle step is handled and preferred bass tuning all factor into it as well.
Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?
How do you handle/tune/place a ring-radiator tweeter design? Don't they have different off-axis response to regular domes and Ribbons? I am asking because I'm working to understand the Kairos/Satori RR tweet, but I'll probably buy a mic at some point, because they are in my small square-ish room pointing to the shorter wall of the room which is also filled with a lot of things (TV, Cabinets, Desk, Bed, Chair, Open closet, HW floor etc.
Without having heard many of the DIY designs, it is a shot in the dark sometimes on making a decision on a speaker. I really loved the sound of the Kef LS50, which is kind a wave guide I think. and I want to tune/place my speakers to create a lot of the same effects although with even more detail perhaps, but maybe I need to think about voicing happens for my room.
How do you handle/tune/place a ring-radiator tweeter design? Don't they have different off-axis response to regular domes and Ribbons? I am asking because I'm working to understand the Kairos/Satori RR tweet...
I don't think the Satori tweeter has any different directivity than other domes of the same diameter. The dimple is just to secure the apex of the dome so it does not radiate any sound. With a lot of dome tweeters the apex of the dome will become out of phase with the base and create a cancellation in the high frequency response. This is what SBA is attempting to eliminate here.
Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?
A loudspeaker is an electro-mechanical transducer. As such it can also be considered in the realm of a musical instrument for you to create, shape and tune.
My suggestion is, like most musicians, find your own 'voice' in your designs. What you like may be different from Jeff's; but not necessarily 'bad' either.
Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?
When I design, I aim for a flat FR. I also aim for very good Phase Alignment.
That said, when I am tweeking there comes a point where magic happens. I suspect its when the phase really aligns but am not sure. There is just something that make it "Done". That's when I stop.
" To me, the soundstage presentation is more about phase and distortion and less about size. However, when you talk about bass extension, there's no replacement for displacement". Tyger23. 4.2015
Quote Originally Posted by hongrn. Oct 2014
Do you realize that being an American is like winning the biggest jackpot ever??
I don't think the Satori tweeter has any different directivity than other domes of the same diameter. The dimple is just to secure the apex of the dome so it does not radiate any sound. With a lot of dome tweeters the apex of the dome will become out of phase with the base and create a cancellation in the high frequency response. This is what SBA is attempting to eliminate here.
Thanks! That is good to know! I love the SBA price/performance ratio, part of the reason I chose the design!
You get a gold star. When people talk about flat frequency response they are thinking one dimensionally. A speaker may be flat on one axis and have real problems off axis. I try to take that into consideration. As a result, over the years, I have developed a particular "recipe " in crossover design that I have found to sound the most natural and coherent to me. I tend to use this recipe in most of my designs. From the older Continuum to the new Spirit Wind the crossover approach is very similar, and this is case for most speakers in between.
Two speakers may have the identical on-axis response, but differences in crossover point, slopes, phase tracking, and the tonal balance of the power response will make them sound very different. In my case, most of my speakers share these design characteristics so they tend to sound very similar.
Wolf and I cook with very different recipes, as an example, so even if both of us target a flat axial response our speakers will likely still sound different , and each will reflect our individual design methods.
In addition to all of this, some people prefer a speaker that has a warmer balance while someone else may like one that is brighter and airier. How baffle step is handled and preferred bass tuning all factor into it as well.
Interesting. Toole's presentation that was posted here seemed to indicate that the key was the flattest possible on and off-axis responses, it didn't seem like there was any room for coloration.
I've heard a great many highly regarded speakers with pretty flat response curves and obviously they do sound different. I've always attributed the differences to environment and conditions but never to trying to achieve a certain sound.
I know there was a east coast/west coast sound, where JBL stuff tended to be brighter (maybe) and the east coast stuff maybe a little more laid-back.
Pretty interesting topic which really goes to the heart of the matter, which is that perfection is unobtainable and designs excel (or not) in the margins.
Interesting. Toole's presentation that was posted here seemed to indicate that the key was the flattest possible on and off-axis responses, it didn't seem like there was any room for coloration.
Yes as to the axial response, mostly as to the off-axis response. The research to this point doesn't indicate an ideal coverage pattern, and probably never will. (IMO, coverage pattern is room dependent; secondarily I have a hunch that listener preferences diverge here more than in other aspects of loudspeaker reproduction.) What it does indicate is that off-axis response should be smooth, with no abrupt peaks.
Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors, such as failure to ensure a midrange/tweeter directivity match by using too large a mid or an inadequate waveguide (often, and astoundingly to me in 2015, 180 deg, i.e. a flat baffle) on the tweeter. My preference is to avoid those errors on the front end.
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"Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)
Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors, such as failure to ensure a midrange/tweeter directivity match by using too large a mid or an inadequate waveguide (often, and astoundingly to me in 2015, 180 deg, i.e. a flat baffle) on the tweeter. My preference is to avoid those errors on the front end.
Baloney! While I will not say that maybe the case for someone covering their tracks it is not by and large the reasoning for competent designers (and at this point I would not put you into that category) here. It's the voicing that takes a solid design from science to art.
Yes as to the axial response, mostly as to the off-axis response. The research to this point doesn't indicate an ideal coverage pattern, and probably never will. (IMO, coverage pattern is room dependent; secondarily I have a hunch that listener preferences diverge here more than in other aspects of loudspeaker reproduction.) What it does indicate is that off-axis response should be smooth, with no abrupt peaks.
Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors, such as failure to ensure a midrange/tweeter directivity match by using too large a mid or an inadequate waveguide (often, and astoundingly to me in 2015, 180 deg, i.e. a flat baffle) on the tweeter. My preference is to avoid those errors on the front end.
just more proof that you know absolutely nothing about real world speaker design. all you can do is puke information that you have read on the internet. there is not a speaker company out there that does not voice a speaker.
craigk
" Voicing is often the term used for band aids to cover for initial design/planning errors " - Pallas
Re: "House sound" Do the designers here have a "house sound"?
I'm not sure I understand the voicing process. After finishing a crossover, I use lossless FLAC files with female vocalists and instrumental music to test the system. My Chorales were tested using Sarah McLachlan's "Angel" from the CD "Absolute Voices II", one of the best recordings I've ever heard. To me, the sound is spot on. So when we talk about voicing, we're talking about a subjective process, and as such, what reference point is used to steer the crossover to produce the sound you desire?
Some people are addicted to Vicodin. I'm addicted to speaker building.
Baloney! *** It's the voicing that takes a solid design from science to art.
Care to formulate a reply that reasonably relates to the words you quoted? You, Craig, and probably some others need to work on that.
I never wrote there's no role for voicing, which seems to be how you misinterpreted my post to read. I agree that some voicing is generally inevitable and useful. But I wrote that OFTEN "voicing" is the manipulation done (consciously or otherwise) to paper over basic errors such as selecting mid/tweeter that cannot match directivity with a reasonable crossover.
If you disagree with my actual assertion, evidence to the contrary would be interesting to see. For example, where in the frequency spectrum do you think most voicing happens?
[edit, which also answers Carl's post below] From what I've seen, in speakers with directivity errors most voicing tends to be within an octave of the nominal crossover. In better configurations the two octaves around the crossover tend to be as flat as the drivers will allow at the design axis and over the front hemisphere, minus a few diffraction related bumps that cover narrow angular regions of the polar response.
--
"Based on my library and laboratory research, I have concluded, as have others, that the best measures of speaker quality are frequency response and dispersion pattern. I have not found any credible research showing that most of the differences we hear among loudspeakers cannot be explained by examining these two variables." -Alvin Foster, 22 BAS Speaker 2 (May, 1999)
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