Darren K & others, Five (or 6) Budget subs

[davidld]

OK PE is currently selling five different pre-assembled sub-$200 subs, and there is a DIY alternative that would cost about $200 to build. All appear to be pretty similar in terms of basic description. In ascending price they are
1. Advent Buyout 309-022 12 inch woofer, 100 watt amp $99.95
2. Dayton sub 300-633 10 inch woofer, 125 watt amp, $124.88
3. Dayton sub 300-635 12-inch woofer, 150 watt amp, $148.88
4. Audiosource sub 302-636 10 inch woofer, 100 watt amp $149.75
5. MTX sub 302-046 12 inch woofer 100 watt amp $179.86
To this lets add, option 6, a DIY alternative consisting of
6. Quatro QT 255-4 10 inch subwoofer 295-550 $64.90, plus a SA 100 100 watt plate amplifier $89.64 for a total of $154.54. Lets assume that a box can be built and lined for about $50 to keep the total cost of the DIY alternative at about $200

Two questions:

1. Assume first that all the alternatives cost the same. On a pure flat-out performance as a sub basis, how would you rank these six alternatives?
Are there clear differences in listening to these options, and if so what are they? There has been a lot of speculation here (including my own), but very little factual information based on any sort of actual comparison of the alternatives. Has PE ever had all of these in a room at the same time and listened carefully to each?

2. Now assume that price is a consideration. If you were to rank these alternatives on a "thump for the buck" basis would the rankings change, and if so, how?

If I called the PE 800 number and asked the person on the other end of the line which of these to buy, what recommendation if any would I likely get?

This is interesting in part because there is really very little in terms of basic characteristics to separate the alternatives.

David

[cptomes]

> OK PE is currently selling five different
> pre-assembled sub-$200 subs, and there is a
> DIY alternative that would cost about $200
> to build. All appear to be pretty similar in
> terms of basic description. In ascending
> price they are
> 1. Advent Buyout 309-022 12 inch woofer, 100
> watt amp $99.95
> 2. Dayton sub 300-633 10 inch woofer, 125
> watt amp, $124.88
> 3. Dayton sub 300-635 12-inch woofer, 150
> watt amp, $148.88
> 4. Audiosource sub 302-636 10 inch woofer,
> 100 watt amp $149.75
> 5. MTX sub 302-046 12 inch woofer 100 watt
> amp $179.86
> To this lets add, option 6, a DIY
> alternative consisting of
> 6. Quatro QT 255-4 10 inch subwoofer 295-550
> $64.90, plus a SA 100 100 watt plate
> amplifier $89.64 for a total of $154.54.
> Lets assume that a box can be built and
> lined for about $50 to keep the total cost
> of the DIY alternative at about $200

> Two questions:

> 1. Assume first that all the alternatives
> cost the same. On a pure flat-out
> performance as a sub basis, how would you
> rank these six alternatives?
> Are there clear differences in listening to
> these options, and if so what are they?
> There has been a lot of speculation here
> (including my own), but very little factual
> information based on any sort of actual
> comparison of the alternatives. Has PE ever
> had all of these in a room at the same time
> and listened carefully to each?

> 2. Now assume that price is a consideration.
> If you were to rank these alternatives on a
> "thump for the buck" basis would
> the rankings change, and if so, how?

> If I called the PE 800 number and asked the
> person on the other end of the line which of
> these to buy, what recommendation if any
> would I likely get?

> This is interesting in part because there is
> really very little in terms of basic
> characteristics to separate the
> alternatives.

> David

Cone area rules. Forget 10" and 12" drivers and go with the 15" Quatro. The extra $20 will get you a sub that will blow away any on that list.

[Chris Roemer]

> Cone area rules. Forget 10" and
> 12" drivers and go with the 15"
> Quatro. The extra $20 will get you a sub
> that will blow away any on that list.

My favorite low cost sub is the Dayton 12" SDVC in 3 cf vented. Add the 100w plate amp and you're lookin' at around $130 (free shipping!) not counting a DIY cab. Hard to beat.

IMHO the Q10 won't really go as low as I'd like a sub to go (BELOW the mid 30's). Off hand, I don't remember, but either its Fs is a bit too high, or its Qts is a bit too low (or both - which limits how low it can reach). The Q12 is another story now. That's a great value in 3 cf vented with the 240w amp for about $200.

Chris

[aricaudio]

> OK PE is currently selling five different
> pre-assembled sub-$200 subs, and there is a
> DIY alternative that would cost about $200
> to build. All appear to be pretty similar in
> terms of basic description. In ascending
> price they are
> 1. Advent Buyout 309-022 12 inch woofer, 100
> watt amp $99.95
> 2. Dayton sub 300-633 10 inch woofer, 125
> watt amp, $124.88
> 3. Dayton sub 300-635 12-inch woofer, 150
> watt amp, $148.88
> 4. Audiosource sub 302-636 10 inch woofer,
> 100 watt amp $149.75
> 5. MTX sub 302-046 12 inch woofer 100 watt
> amp $179.86
> To this lets add, option 6, a DIY
> alternative consisting of
> 6. Quatro QT 255-4 10 inch subwoofer 295-550
> $64.90, plus a SA 100 100 watt plate
> amplifier $89.64 for a total of $154.54.
> Lets assume that a box can be built and
> lined for about $50 to keep the total cost
> of the DIY alternative at about $200

> Two questions:

> 1. Assume first that all the alternatives
> cost the same. On a pure flat-out
> performance as a sub basis, how would you
> rank these six alternatives?
> Are there clear differences in listening to
> these options, and if so what are they?
> There has been a lot of speculation here
> (including my own), but very little factual
> information based on any sort of actual
> comparison of the alternatives. Has PE ever
> had all of these in a room at the same time
> and listened carefully to each?

> 2. Now assume that price is a consideration.
> If you were to rank these alternatives on a
> "thump for the buck" basis would
> the rankings change, and if so, how?

> If I called the PE 800 number and asked the
> person on the other end of the line which of
> these to buy, what recommendation if any
> would I likely get?

> This is interesting in part because there is
> really very little in terms of basic
> characteristics to separate the
> alternatives.

> David

<A HREF="http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=254325">http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=254325</A>

[davidld]

Its possible to build a 3 cubic ft sub that goes deeper for maybe a little over $200. But a lot of us wouldn't have space or be able to get the significant other to go along with moving in a 3 cu ft MDF box no matter how nice the finishing job. Even these commercial subs are probably pushing it in this department, but are nice sized if they can be used as small tables etc.
What can you do with an MDF box with approximate external dimensions of say 16" x 16" by 16" using a 10- or 12-inch woofer?
So far here we have established that a 3 cubic foot box produces more bass than a 1.5 cu ft box, and a 15 inch woofer might work even better than a 10 or 12 inch woofer, but I would like to stay reasonably close to the basic size parameters of the commercially available units, 1 to 1.5 cu ft with a 10 or 12 inch driver.

D

> My favorite low cost sub is the Dayton
> 12" SDVC in 3 cf vented. Add the 100w
> plate amp and you're lookin' at around $130
> (free shipping!) not counting a DIY cab.
> Hard to beat.

> IMHO the Q10 won't really go as low as I'd
> like a sub to go (BELOW the mid 30's). Off
> hand, I don't remember, but either its Fs is
> a bit too high, or its Qts is a bit too low
> (or both - which limits how low it can
> reach). The Q12 is another story now. That's
> a great value in 3 cf vented with the 240w
> amp for about $200.

> Chris

[kduggan]

> Put the 12" DVC Dayton in a 1 - 1.25 Cuft Sealed box and use a plate amp with bass boost. Tight sealed bass and with a 6 dB 30 HZ bass bost you will have good response down to low 30's. One of my favorite combos for deep base in a small to medium room (300 cuft or less) is a ported 8" DVC 70 Watt plate amp combo in a 1.1 cuft box.

OK PE is currently selling five different
> pre-assembled sub-$200 subs, and there is a
> DIY alternative that would cost about $200
> to build. All appear to be pretty similar in
> terms of basic description. In ascending
> price they are
> 1. Advent Buyout 309-022 12 inch woofer, 100
> watt amp $99.95
> 2. Dayton sub 300-633 10 inch woofer, 125
> watt amp, $124.88
> 3. Dayton sub 300-635 12-inch woofer, 150
> watt amp, $148.88
> 4. Audiosource sub 302-636 10 inch woofer,
> 100 watt amp $149.75
> 5. MTX sub 302-046 12 inch woofer 100 watt
> amp $179.86
> To this lets add, option 6, a DIY
> alternative consisting of
> 6. Quatro QT 255-4 10 inch subwoofer 295-550
> $64.90, plus a SA 100 100 watt plate
> amplifier $89.64 for a total of $154.54.
> Lets assume that a box can be built and
> lined for about $50 to keep the total cost
> of the DIY alternative at about $200

> Two questions:

> 1. Assume first that all the alternatives
> cost the same. On a pure flat-out
> performance as a sub basis, how would you
> rank these six alternatives?
> Are there clear differences in listening to
> these options, and if so what are they?
> There has been a lot of speculation here
> (including my own), but very little factual
> information based on any sort of actual
> comparison of the alternatives. Has PE ever
> had all of these in a room at the same time
> and listened carefully to each?

> 2. Now assume that price is a consideration.
> If you were to rank these alternatives on a
> "thump for the buck" basis would
> the rankings change, and if so, how?

> If I called the PE 800 number and asked the
> person on the other end of the line which of
> these to buy, what recommendation if any
> would I likely get?

> This is interesting in part because there is
> really very little in terms of basic
> characteristics to separate the
> alternatives.

> David

[jayc]

> small to medium room (300 cuft or less)

That is small indeed!! I guess I could use a sub in the bath room!!! J/K

[alann]

Provided Link: Hoffman's Iron Law


> OK PE is currently selling five different
> pre-assembled sub-$200 subs, and there is a
> DIY alternative that would cost about $200
> to build. All appear to be pretty similar in
> terms of basic description. In ascending
> price they are
> 1. Advent Buyout 309-022 12 inch woofer, 100
> watt amp $99.95
> 2. Dayton sub 300-633 10 inch woofer, 125
> watt amp, $124.88
> 3. Dayton sub 300-635 12-inch woofer, 150
> watt amp, $148.88
> 4. Audiosource sub 302-636 10 inch woofer,
> 100 watt amp $149.75
> 5. MTX sub 302-046 12 inch woofer 100 watt
> amp $179.86
> To this lets add, option 6, a DIY
> alternative consisting of
> 6. Quatro QT 255-4 10 inch subwoofer 295-550
> $64.90, plus a SA 100 100 watt plate
> amplifier $89.64 for a total of $154.54.
> Lets assume that a box can be built and
> lined for about $50 to keep the total cost
> of the DIY alternative at about $200

> Two questions:

> 1. Assume first that all the alternatives
> cost the same. On a pure flat-out
> performance as a sub basis, how would you
> rank these six alternatives?
> Are there clear differences in listening to
> these options, and if so what are they?
> There has been a lot of speculation here
> (including my own), but very little factual
> information based on any sort of actual
> comparison of the alternatives. Has PE ever
> had all of these in a room at the same time
> and listened carefully to each?

> 2. Now assume that price is a consideration.
> If you were to rank these alternatives on a
> "thump for the buck" basis would
> the rankings change, and if so, how?

> If I called the PE 800 number and asked the
> person on the other end of the line which of
> these to buy, what recommendation if any
> would I likely get?

> This is interesting in part because there is
> really very little in terms of basic
> characteristics to separate the
> alternatives.

> David

Read the link. I don't think anybody has disproved it so far about 45 years. I have been slaped around by it a few times.

[romanbednarek]

Provided Link: RJB Audio Projects


> Its possible to build a 3 cubic ft sub that
> goes deeper for maybe a little over $200.
> But a lot of us wouldn't have space or be
> able to get the significant other to go
> along with moving in a 3 cu ft MDF box no
> matter how nice the finishing job. Even
> these commercial subs are probably pushing
> it in this department, but are nice sized if
> they can be used as small tables etc.
> What can you do with an MDF box with
> approximate external dimensions of say
> 16" x 16" by 16" using a 10-
> or 12-inch woofer?
> So far here we have established that a 3
> cubic foot box produces more bass than a 1.5
> cu ft box, and a 15 inch woofer might work
> even better than a 10 or 12 inch woofer, but
> I would like to stay reasonably close to the
> basic size parameters of the commercially
> available units, 1 to 1.5 cu ft with a 10 or
> 12 inch driver.

> D

If you want something small for about $100 in parts build the Cerberus sub shown below. It is only 11" cubed but the max output is only about 100+ dB.

[peterjessee]

Provided Link: 12&quot; DVC in 1 cu ft Box


> Its possible to build a 3 cubic ft sub that
> goes deeper for maybe a little over $200.
> But a lot of us wouldn't have space or be
> able to get the significant other to go
> along with moving in a 3 cu ft MDF box no
> matter how nice the finishing job. Even
> these commercial subs are probably pushing
> it in this department, but are nice sized if
> they can be used as small tables etc.
> What can you do with an MDF box with
> approximate external dimensions of say
> 16" x 16" by 16" using a 10-
> or 12-inch woofer?
> So far here we have established that a 3
> cubic foot box produces more bass than a 1.5
> cu ft box, and a 15 inch woofer might work
> even better than a 10 or 12 inch woofer, but
> I would like to stay reasonably close to the
> basic size parameters of the commercially
> available units, 1 to 1.5 cu ft with a 10 or
> 12 inch driver.

> D

You can put the 12" DVC 295-185 (the good one with 15mm XMax) in a 1 cu ft box and get ridiculous performance. I used a car sub enclosure but you can build your own to whatever degree of SAF required. Check out the measurement graph at my site - flat to 25 Hz with a ~2 dB boost is pretty good in a two car garage. It measures the same in my Living Room, if you're wondering. It also sounds very good - tight, quick and deep, unlike a lot of commercial vented subs that tend to be slow and one-notey.

I'm using a 250 watt plate amp and can push it past 105 dBA, but the 300-792 120 watt amp for $99.95 gives up less than 3 dB. This puts the total a little over $200 but this is serious performance in a very small package.

Peter

[kduggan]

> Thanks for pointing that out, I ment square feet. That is small indeed!! I guess I could use a
> sub in the bath room!!! J/K

[cptomes]

> Its possible to build a 3 cubic ft sub that
> goes deeper for maybe a little over $200.
> But a lot of us wouldn't have space or be
> able to get the significant other to go
> along with moving in a 3 cu ft MDF box no
> matter how nice the finishing job. Even
> these commercial subs are probably pushing
> it in this department, but are nice sized if
> they can be used as small tables etc.
> What can you do with an MDF box with
> approximate external dimensions of say
> 16" x 16" by 16" using a 10-
> or 12-inch woofer?
> So far here we have established that a 3
> cubic foot box produces more bass than a 1.5
> cu ft box, and a 15 inch woofer might work
> even better than a 10 or 12 inch woofer, but
> I would like to stay reasonably close to the
> basic size parameters of the commercially
> available units, 1 to 1.5 cu ft with a 10 or
> 12 inch driver.

> D

I would still put a 15' driver in it. F3 looks higher, and efficiency drops compared to a 10" in the same box, but when you look at it from a purely sound out vs electrons in the 15" will still blow away the smaller drivers. Put a Linkwitz Transform upstream of the line level in on the plate amp if you want to fix the small sealed box and take care not to run the amp into clipping. Personally I found that the sub crossover was below F3 anyway.

You want a woofer, use a 10". You want a SUBwoofer, it's not going to cut the mustard. Woofers make great sound at 40Hz but run out of steam at 20Hz. My criteria (which I built all my subs to) is 90dB at 20Hz at the listening position. Not close-miked at the port.

Very few people have heard >90dB at 20Hz in a room. It's loud, and most of what you hear is the rest of the objects in the room shaking. Small children and adults of weak constitution run from the room covering their ears. Pictures bounce off walls, objects on shelves move around. We did 114dB at 19Hz in a 12x12x8' room using a termlab pressure transducer (not an AC or other condenser mike) and ran out of amp, not driver.

Sound is air moving. You want to make lots of sound, you have to have lots of displacement. A ported system is going to have a brickwall filter below tuning either mechanically or if you are smart, an electronic filter to protect the driver. If you tune the box to have a very low port tuning and still preserve the efficiency gains of the ported system, you're talking about a big box and port anyway, bigger than a larger driver in a sealed box.

A sealed system will still have output well below F3. Getting lots of output from a sealed system with a 10" or 12" driver is going to be a trick. If you're happy with ~80dB at 20Hz then more power to you.

Try this:

Model up two drivers, set the power input the same, make sure whatever graphing you have has identical scales on the axes. If one drivers' power-limited spl curve completely contains the other system's curve, tell me again why the system with the smaller area under the curve is better?

[cptomes]

> If you want something small for about $100
> in parts build the Cerberus sub shown below.
> It is only 11" cubed but the max output
> is only about 100+ dB.

That's a great system, but it also demonstrates my point about a brickwall cutoff below tuning. If the point is to fill in some low bass and try to make some <40Hz sound for small bookshelf speakers, this is perfect.

If the intent is to build a subwoofer that's not going to be useless when bigger l/r mains (that have output down into the 50-60Hz range) are purchased/built then you're going to start over again for that system. Using a small woofer to make half an octave of output isn't the way I chose to spend my dollars.