what's inside a monster power conditioner?

**gordoncalder** · 08-09-2006, 10:37 AM

Hi,

I just bought the smallest possible monster power conditioner (still not cheap - $100 cdn). Anyway, I'm pretty impressed with what it does! A major!! improvement all around, so I don't feel ripped off at all...except...the diyer in my just has to know what's in there. Could I have made something equivalent for $10 in electronic bits?

thanks,

Gordon

**Paul O** · 08-09-2006, 10:56 AM

You didn't say exactly "what" was improved or what model device you bought. If your household AC is particularly noisy some line filtering will certainly help remove transients that could get through and audio system, but if it's more stable then changes will be harder to measure. The reason is that the power filtering and rectification that occurs inside audio components renders all but obscene levels of AC line noise insignificant.

**wg_ski** · 08-09-2006, 10:58 AM

> Hi,

> I just bought the smallest possible monster
> power conditioner (still not cheap - $100
> cdn). Anyway, I'm pretty impressed with what
> it does! A major!! improvement all around,
> so I don't feel ripped off at
> all...except...the diyer in my just has to
> know what's in there. Could I have made
> something equivalent for $10 in electronic
> bits?

> thanks,

> Gordon

Pop the cover off and prepare to cry. It's proabably not much more than a line filter - I doubt you get regulation on one that "cheap". It *shouldn't* do much to the sound, as they type of interference it's designed to filter out is intermittant in nature - like the A/C or the washing machine kicking in and causing the amp to "pop". It's annoying at home watching a movie, and in a recording studio it's unacceptable! It should keep equipment from damage and the clicks and pops down, but the overall sound quality in the absence of such events will not change. If you think othwerwise, you just swallowed the placebo.

You could get a similar-capability unit from Isobar or Tripp-Lite or less. For really serious studio or road use, you need a power conditioner that also regulates and they go for 3x.

**gordoncalder** · 08-09-2006, 12:22 PM

Hi,

thanks for the response. I'm sure this thing is made of pretty cheap stuff. No argument there. And no doubt the mark-up is 400% (but that's the same with anything). I bought it feeling quite sure that I'd be returning it to the store later - I just wanted to see what these things did (if anything). But the improvement (treble, mid, bass, imaging) wasn't minor. It really is as if a whole layer of white noise had been taken away. Maybe I do have really 'noisy' power, or maybe my second-hand store receiver doesn't do what better quality ones would do in terms of filtering power, I don't know - but this really does do a lot more than nothing.

**bobleeqsc** · 08-09-2006, 12:48 PM

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**gordoncalder** · 08-09-2006, 01:11 PM

I was trying to ask a serious question.

**johnddaugherty** · 08-09-2006, 01:15 PM

> I was trying to ask a serious question.

If you can hear the difference with the device in the system, then it works, regardless of what passes for the opinions expressed by others. Maybe simple line filtration is exactly what's required.

**Paul O** · 08-09-2006, 01:23 PM

> - I just wanted to see
> what these things did (if anything). But the
> improvement (treble, mid, bass, imaging)
> wasn't minor. It really is as if a whole
> layer of white noise had been taken away.

The nicest way I can put this is.. you need to do a double blind test. That is sit in the listening room with your back to the system and/or blindfolded and have somebody else operate the gear. They will switch between the conditioner and a plain power bar at random intervals and ask you to describe any differences you hear. You should listen to the same track at the same level every time. If you cannot pick the conditioner as better sounding every time it's not making any difference.

**unknownuser** · 08-09-2006, 01:51 PM

> The nicest way I can put this is.. you need
> to do a double blind test. That is sit in
> the listening room with your back to the
> system and/or blindfolded and have somebody
> else operate the gear. They will switch
> between the conditioner and a plain power
> bar at random intervals and ask you to
> describe any differences you hear. You
> should listen to the same track at the same
> level every time. If you cannot pick the
> conditioner as better sounding every time
> it's not making any difference.

Not to step on anyone's toes, but…that is an oversimplification of the process. Just because you can't "hear" a difference doesn't mean that the monster isn't doing a better job at "cleaning" the AC power than a $2 power strip...remember the point of a power conditioner is to protect your equipment from electrical issues, not make your system sound better. But if it does make it sound better, more power to ya'. For a real test…you should measure the condition of the electrical current at AC outlet, then through a $2 power strip, and then through the Monster…I think you would see (physical measurement) a difference, and be able to prove the difference rather than basing it on a subjective listening "test".

(Originally posted by: A/V Dude)

**palouse1** · 08-09-2006, 01:52 PM

"Tru-Tone" duplex covers at $30 a pop? These guys must laugh their ***** off whenever they get an order for some of these.

**unknownuser** · 08-09-2006, 01:56 PM

> "Tru-Tone" duplex covers at $30 a
> pop? These guys must laugh their ***** off
> whenever they get an order for some of
> these.

Nothing like reselling a $0.25 Leviton cover for 700% mark up...

(Originally posted by: A/V Dude)

**johnddaugherty** · 08-09-2006, 02:12 PM

> Not to step on anyone's toes, but…that is an
> oversimplification of the process. Just
> because you can't "hear" a
> difference doesn't mean that the monster
> isn't doing a better job at
> "cleaning" the AC power than a $2
> power strip...remember the point of a power
> conditioner is to protect your equipment
> from electrical issues, not make your system
> sound better. But if it does make it sound
> better, more power to ya'. For a real
> test…you should measure the condition of the
> electrical current at AC outlet, then
> through a $2 power strip, and then through
> the Monster…I think you would see (physical
> measurement) a difference, and be able to
> prove the difference rather than basing it
> on a subjective listening "test".

These discussions are reminiscent of the vitriolic disputes between the typically polarized "audiophiles" of Italy during the late 1960's, early 1970's, with one camp claiming that measurements alone were valid, the other that only ears were valid. The only problem with measurements is the often unexamined assumption that the right thing is being measured. Ultimately, however, music is meant to be heard.
It's easy for some to make fun of the tube amp high-efficiency speaker freaks because of the higher measured distortion of typical tube amps; yet since the distortion is of a different order than that typically produced by solid state amps that measure lower, the tube rig might actually "sound" better in that it sounds more musical. While much progress has been made in the field of psycho-acoustics, much remains to be done and, to date, little of what is known has been very meaningfully or scientifically applied to reasonably priced audio gear. Since the subject in this thread is the perceived improvement with the power conditioner in-line, then the earlier suggestion for double-blind tests so that Gordon can tell if he's actually hearing an improvement or not is an excellent one.

**nick29498141** · 08-09-2006, 02:16 PM

With the 3500 center, it made my standerd 480i cable feed a bit clearer. it cleaded up some of the video snow probles I was having.

I liked it for >$150

NK

**unknownuser** · 08-09-2006, 02:34 PM

As I state above the point of a power conditioner is to protect your equipment from electrical issues, not make your system sound better. But if it does make it sound better, more power to ya'.

So I'm not going to buy a power conditioner for the purpose of "improving" my audio. I would buy one to protect my equipment from electrical problems, but if it "improves" the audio, than that is icing on the cake.

(Originally posted by: A/V Dude)

**Paul O** · 08-09-2006, 02:56 PM

> As I state above the point of a power
> conditioner is to protect your equipment
> from electrical issues, not make your system
> sound better. But if it does make it sound
> better, more power to ya'.

My point and John's I'm sure has nothing to do with whether or not a power conditioner can make a difference. It is that due to some ill understood properties of the human brain, a person can believe there is a difference or improvement when there is in fact none just because they think there should be a difference. The placibo pill and it's documented results are a perfect example. The double blind test is a way to prove or disprove the existence of a percieved difference.

**bill** · 08-09-2006, 03:01 PM

> With the 3500 center, it made my standerd
> 480i cable feed a bit clearer. it cleaded up
> some of the video snow probles I was having.

> I liked it for >$150

> NK

In your case, the power conditioner was almost certainly making up for serious deficiencies in the power supplies in your cable box and/or TV. It's like using rubber gloves because your fountain pen leaks; you're getting symptomatic relief but you're not solving the underlying problem. On the other hand, you don't get a choice on the cable box design, and since you already had the TV, the Monster box might well have been your best option. I just hate having to spend that kind of money because the designer of my other equipment decided to save a buck or two on parts.

Properly-designed power supplies don't need an external power conditioner.

Best regards,
Bill

**gordoncalder** · 08-09-2006, 03:25 PM

Hi John, thanks for holding to the moderate point of view...

and to a few others...
I had no idea this was such a touchy subject! What I was actually expecting was someone to say yeah, that thing's worth about $10 in parts, which you can buy at(helpful link) and put together yourself...like this (helpful link).

I searched google quite a bit and found lots of ranting forum threads (like this one is starting to be) and very little about how to build the thing.

I wasn't really questioning whether I was hearing an improvement, just how to go about hearing the same improvement for less money. Isn't that what diy is about?

Everyone sit back listen to music and have another beer...

Gordon

**Paul O** · 08-09-2006, 03:37 PM

> I wasn't really questioning whether I was hearing an improvement,

Gordon.. the more respected contributers to this forum are trying to suggest that you should question whether you were actually hearing an improvement or not, because the Monster really is just a fancy box with less than $5 in parts in it and it should not make any audible differnece to even mediocre equipment.

**wg_ski** · 08-09-2006, 03:39 PM

> In your case, the power conditioner was
> almost certainly making up for serious
> deficiencies in the power supplies in your
> cable box and/or TV. It's like using rubber
> gloves because your fountain pen leaks;
> you're getting symptomatic relief but you're
> not solving the underlying problem. On the
> other hand, you don't get a choice on the
> cable box design, and since you already had
> the TV, the Monster box might well have been
> your best option. I just hate having to
> spend that kind of money because the
> designer of my other equipment decided to
> save a buck or two on parts.

It may have been inadvertantly solving a ground loop issue. They are a lot more insidious with video than audio. And in many cases, easy and cheap to solve IF (and only if) you know where to look.

> Properly-designed power supplies don't need
> an external power conditioner.

They do if you're running a mixing board off a gas powered generator. Along with intermittant high current loads, or phase controlled lighting on the same generator. The problems are gross and it's not like "removing the grain" from the sound or whatever. In those situations you want regulation in addition to filtering if for no other reason than keeping your DSP from rebooting. But those situations don't happen too often in your living room.

> Best regards,
> Bill

**thomasw** · 08-09-2006, 03:55 PM

designs (thanks to Richard Marsh) and are well made. They're a good buy for the close-out pricing. Here's the inside of a 3500 MKII

And here's a pic of the insides of the 5000.

Copy and paste link since the software doesn't allow multiple pics in one post

<A HREF="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...5000Inside.jpg">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...5000Inside.jpg</A>

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