how do you veneer?

[karl]

ok so i am expecting my subs and amps tomorrow the enclosures are pretty much done. other than the baffel, amp cut out and putting the top on which i will be doing last. OK so i am undecided how to finish the boxes. I may go veneer i may go paint. However i dont know how to veneer i have never done it. I am looking at the bamboo veneer it says its "1/42” paper-fleece" what ever that means.

How do i cut it? just glue a side on and trim it down with a good utility knife?

i am guessing it hides imperfections on the box better than painting.

it says use a "D-4 waterproof glue" what the heck is that? and any idea if i can get that from loweS?

and in general just looking for different opinions on how you guys veneer stuff

[matg]

i would go with the paint. If you are trying to cover surface imperfections like fill nial/screw holes, edge grain on MDF/particle board, that kind of thing then bondo or wood putty or epoxy or even spackel can do wonders! apply the filler as per container instructions, let dry, sand smooth and paint.

If you want to learn about veneer, there are several woodworking sites that would have a tutorial on veneer application methods and materials. There are several posts on veneering on this board if you look in the archive section. There are even people here who may have a link to some nifty "how to veneer" videos or papers.

Veneer is cool stuff, but if this is your first attempt, I would practice on something besides the very cool and if veneered, very visual speakers. Just my 2 cents on that.

The "D-4" glue you refered to is probable the veneer makers in-house label that they want to sell you. The veneer you mentioned seems to be labeled as 1/42 of an inch (wierd fraction for an inch, 1/32 seems more normal, but whatever) of real wood over a paper backer. The paper makes the veneer more stable and keeps the glue from soaking through the wood.

there are several good water based and solvent based contact adhesives that are great for applying veneers, laminates, and foils. Most all contact adhesives are "water-proof" when cured. for ease of use, something like 3m spray 90 or super 77 works well for smaller pieces of veneer. Instructions are on the can.

Trimming veneer with a SHARP utility knife is possible, but not very fun or easy to get a clean edge, but it is doable. A flush trim bit on a router is easiest.

Cutting veneer. A sharp utility knife, sharp scissors, a table saw if you are careful, handle it like stiff paper that will split and chip rather than tare.

> ok so i am expecting my subs and amps
> tomorrow the enclosures are pretty much
> done. other than the baffel, amp cut out and
> putting the top on which i will be doing
> last. OK so i am undecided how to finish the
> boxes. I may go veneer i may go paint.
> However i dont know how to veneer i have
> never done it. I am looking at the bamboo
> veneer it says its "1/42”
> paper-fleece" what ever that means.

> How do i cut it? just glue a side on and
> trim it down with a good utility knife?

> i am guessing it hides imperfections on the
> box better than painting.

> it says use a "D-4 waterproof
> glue" what the heck is that? and any
> idea if i can get that from loweS?

> and in general just looking for different
> opinions on how you guys veneer stuff

[matg]

and need specific answers or can't find what you need in a google search,email me and i can give you more info or help with veneering.

[karl]

> i would go with the paint. If you are trying
> to cover surface imperfections like fill
> nial/screw holes, edge grain on MDF/particle
> board, that kind of thing then bondo or wood
> putty or epoxy or even spackel can do
> wonders! apply the filler as per container
> instructions, let dry, sand smooth and
> paint.

> If you want to learn about veneer, there are
> several woodworking sites that would have a
> tutorial on veneer application methods and
> materials. There are several posts on
> veneering on this board if you look in the
> archive section. There are even people here
> who may have a link to some nifty "how
> to veneer" videos or papers.

> Veneer is cool stuff, but if this is your
> first attempt, I would practice on something
> besides the very cool and if veneered, very
> visual speakers. Just my 2 cents on that.

> The "D-4" glue you refered to is
> probable the veneer makers in-house label
> that they want to sell you. The veneer you
> mentioned seems to be labeled as 1/42 of an
> inch (wierd fraction for an inch, 1/32 seems
> more normal, but whatever) of real wood over
> a paper backer. The paper makes the veneer
> more stable and keeps the glue from soaking
> through the wood.

> there are several good water based and
> solvent based contact adhesives that are
> great for applying veneers, laminates, and
> foils. Most all contact adhesives are
> "water-proof" when cured. for ease
> of use, something like 3m spray 90 or super
> 77 works well for smaller pieces of veneer.
> Instructions are on the can.

> Trimming veneer with a SHARP utility knife
> is possible, but not very fun or easy to get
> a clean edge, but it is doable. A flush trim
> bit on a router is easiest.

> Cutting veneer. A sharp utility knife, sharp
> scissors, a table saw if you are careful,
> handle it like stiff paper that will split
> and chip rather than tare.

actually if you saw all the filler i have rubbed all over these enclosures trying to smooth everything out you might mess yourself...i actually have done about every edge its drying now and i will sand some more tomorrow.

This will be the first try at veneer and actually my first speaker build...and probably will be the last one for a long time. they are actually going to be for end tables...hopefully it wont vibrate drinks off...if it does i will get get another sheet of mdf and double it up.

but being they are going to be right out for everybody to see i would like to have them veneered...but i dont want to screw up something like that since it can get expensive.

[karl]

> and need specific answers or can't find what
> you need in a google search,email me and i
> can give you more info or help with
> veneering.

sweet thanks man i will have to look more into it tomorrow or maybe next week since i will be testing out the boxes and such probably the rest fo the week

[philip]

> actually if you saw all the filler i have
> rubbed all over these enclosures trying to
> smooth everything out you might mess
> yourself...i actually have done about every
> edge its drying now and i will sand some
> more tomorrow.

Get 60 grid sand paper, it cuts thru mdf, filler and bondo fairly easy. I mix elmers probond glue with water 50/50 and brush on all cut edges. it soaks in a hardens the ends.

[philip]

> i can give you more info or help with
> veneering.

LOL.... that's really nice of you Matt, but what if he lives 3000 miles away? It may take you awhile to drive over.

[mgh]

Here's a good starting place:

Murray

<A HREF="http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/VeneerTutorial.pdf">http://www.lonesaguaro.com/speakers/VeneerTutorial.pdf</A>

> ok so i am expecting my subs and amps
> tomorrow the enclosures are pretty much
> done. other than the baffel, amp cut out and
> putting the top on which i will be doing
> last. OK so i am undecided how to finish the
> boxes. I may go veneer i may go paint.
> However i dont know how to veneer i have
> never done it. I am looking at the bamboo
> veneer it says its "1/42”
> paper-fleece" what ever that means.

> How do i cut it? just glue a side on and
> trim it down with a good utility knife?

> i am guessing it hides imperfections on the
> box better than painting.

> it says use a "D-4 waterproof
> glue" what the heck is that? and any
> idea if i can get that from loweS?

> and in general just looking for different
> opinions on how you guys veneer stuff

[shawn_a]

Murray beat me to it but Lou's site is where I learned to veneer. Yeah, the first time is scary and there's plenty that can go wrong. Fortunately we have Lou to kick around and his veneering tutorial is a great learning tool. I can't tell you how much frustration he saved me by writing up his procedure to use a guide.

BTW, where did you get the bamboo veneer? I think I want to grab some of that for myself. I'm kind of in a bamboo mode now (looking at doing my living room floor in the stuff) and I sure would like to play with it as a veneer. Thanks.

shawn

[dzach]

karl,

If this is your first attempt, you might want to try the pre-glued veneer. Band-it sells it in a variety of woods and it is only a couple bucks more than their paper-backed veneer. You will probably need to order online (Acme Hardware has pretty good prices).

Lowes sells only the red-oak pre-glued veneer, but someone mentioned here recently that they were closing out their stock and prices were dirt cheap.

Anyway, I have used the pre-glued stuff and actually prefer it. There is no mess or odor from using adhesives. It is super easy to use. You just fire up the ole iron and press away. I have had no problems with the veneer bubbling or lifting.

In terms of cutting it a router with edge trim bit works the best/fastest, but it does not seem to get it completely flush, so I usually have to use a sanding block afterward. Before I had the router, I used a Dremel with a sanding wheel.

The one negative thing about the pre-glued stuff is that the glue tends to gum up the router bits, which requires periodic stops to clean the bit while edge trimming.

Good luck!
dzach

> ok so i am expecting my subs and amps
> tomorrow the enclosures are pretty much
> done. other than the baffel, amp cut out and
> putting the top on which i will be doing
> last. OK so i am undecided how to finish the
> boxes. I may go veneer i may go paint.
> However i dont know how to veneer i have
> never done it. I am looking at the bamboo
> veneer it says its "1/42”
> paper-fleece" what ever that means.

> How do i cut it? just glue a side on and
> trim it down with a good utility knife?

> i am guessing it hides imperfections on the
> box better than painting.

> it says use a "D-4 waterproof
> glue" what the heck is that? and any
> idea if i can get that from loweS?

> and in general just looking for different
> opinions on how you guys veneer stuff

[karl]

> Murray beat me to it but Lou's site is where
> I learned to veneer. Yeah, the first time is
> scary and there's plenty that can go wrong.
> Fortunately we have Lou to kick around and
> his veneering tutorial is a great learning
> tool. I can't tell you how much frustration
> he saved me by writing up his procedure to
> use a guide.

> BTW, where did you get the bamboo veneer? I
> think I want to grab some of that for
> myself. I'm kind of in a bamboo mode now
> (looking at doing my living room floor in
> the stuff) and I sure would like to play
> with it as a veneer. Thanks.

> shawn

Hey shawn this is were i have found the bamboo veneer there might be some other places that have it but so far this is all i have found. <A HREF="http://www.mastergardenproducts.com/bambooveneer.htm">http://www.mastergardenproducts.com/bambooveneer.htm</A> i havent bought any yet since i havent found shipping cost yet. but i am looking at either the carbonized horizontal or the blonde horizontal not sure if i want to go with the darker or not.

[dancarroll]

Provided Link: Advocate


I use the wood glue iron on method, using TiteBond II, and have never had any problem. Go to this url:

<A HREF="http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html">http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips/ironon.html</A>

I use 10 mil paperbacked veneer. I have never tried contact cement, but have avoided it due to the volatility, smell, and lack of forgiveness -- once it contacts, it is set.

The project below and the linked pics are both of projects I did using that method:

[Bruce]

I always prefer a "blonde...horizontal"

Seriously, bamboo veneer looks like it has promise. The carbonized horizontal looks very nice and would probably go quite well with a black satin-finished baffle. OTOH so would the blonde horizontal.

BTW, I'm in the final stages of veneering a set of Modula MT's and Audax HT with raw heavy flaked white oak veneer. Now, working with this stuff requires a steep learning curve!
First, I didn't flatten the veneer, and after gluing (using polyurethane construction adhesive) in a veneer press, there were bubbles. So I cut them out, filled the gaps with bondo then re-veneered. DUH!! Hooped again! This time the polyurethane glue didn't stick to the not-quite-cured bondo, creating an identical set of bubbles as in the first layer. I ended up planing off both layers of veneer, right down to the MDF.

After more research, I discovered that if wavy raw veneer isn't flattened it can be a recipe for disaster. So, with the endorsement of B. King, I made up a homemade veneer softener solution, pressed the veneer flat and problem solved. I'm very happy with the results & there are no more bubbles.

Paper backed veneer is much, much easier to use. I would choose the PVA iron-on method (as per tutorials) for that, making sure the substrate was as smooth as glass first though.

In the end, using veneer is a sure-fire way of making your speakers look more professional and "furniture-like".

In my case it has also dramatically increased the SAF, encouraging me to make even more speakers.

[jonpike]

...some bamboo veneer at one of the "big" online stores a year ago or more. <insert names of big veneer companies here)

[johnastockman]

> karl,

> If this is your first attempt, you might
> want to try the pre-glued veneer. Band-it
> sells it in a variety of woods and it is
> only a couple bucks more than their
> paper-backed veneer. You will probably need
> to order online (Acme Hardware has pretty
> good prices).

> Lowes sells only the red-oak pre-glued
> veneer, but someone mentioned here recently
> that they were closing out their stock and
> prices were dirt cheap.

> Anyway, I have used the pre-glued stuff and
> actually prefer it. There is no mess or odor
> from using adhesives. It is super easy to
> use. You just fire up the ole iron and press
> away. I have had no problems with the veneer
> bubbling or lifting.

> In terms of cutting it a router with edge
> trim bit works the best/fastest, but it does
> not seem to get it completely flush, so I
> usually have to use a sanding block
> afterward. Before I had the router, I used a
> Dremel with a sanding wheel.

> The one negative thing about the pre-glued
> stuff is that the glue tends to gum up the
> router bits, which requires periodic stops
> to clean the bit while edge trimming.

> Good luck!
> dzach

I've been using the PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive) backed veneer from Rockler. A bit more, but no cement or glue to mess with. All you need is a CLEAN surface, fairly smooth. I use a J-roller for the "pressure sensitive" part. The adhesive is extremely strong...I cut it about 1/8" to 1/4" oversize and trim it with a spiral flush-trim bit in the router. Zach is right about adhesive build up, not too much of a PITA, but if the stuff builds up too much, it affects the quality/accuracy of the cut. Here's a speaker I made about 2-3 years ago with the PSA veneer. It's applied over some used counter-top material I got for free at a construction site. All I had to do was sand off the laminate that was on top of the MDF and glue the box pieces together. There's no sign of the veneer lifting, even on the edges or corners. Nice stuff!

John A.

[philip]

> I made up a homemade
> veneer softener solution, pressed the veneer
> flat and problem solved. I'm very happy with
> the results & there are no more bubbles.

Please tell us about homemade veneer softener solution. Thanks

[Bruce]

"Please tell us about homemade veneer softener solution."

Jeff, It's described in this post:

<A HREF="http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=295276">http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=295276</A>

I went with the 10% glycerine/90% water solution, sprayed it on all the same sized veneer for the sides, let it sit for about 15mins, rinsed it (not in the original instructions),let that drain for about 10 mins then layered it.

Be careful of some of the "homemade veneer softener" recipes - the ones that contain PVA (white or yellow) glue will seal the surface of the wood making even staining almost impossible.

I used layers of kraft paper against each side of the veneer, and sandwiched several layers of newspaper between each kraft-wrapped veneer piece. There were 8 pieces of veneer in all.

I lightly clamped the bundle overnight and first thing the next morning changed all the paper and reclamped it, this time a little tighter. Repeated this process twice more that day (about 4hrs apart) using fresh, dry paper and again the next morning.

By that time the veneer was all flat and almost dry. I was able to use the first piece that afternoon. All the rest were kept clamped between dry kraft paper.

I think that Polyurethane glue is a good bet for this process because it cures even in the presence of moisture and if some seeps through cracks in the oak venee (unlike PVA glue) it can be sanded and take stain. It also doesn't cause the veneer to swell like PVA glue does.

Finally, because raw heavy flake oak veneer has a lot of shallow voids in it, polyurethane glue is ideal because it swells on curing and fills them. Stinky traditional contact cement won't do that (I've tried it and had airspaces left under the veneer surface).

Good luck!

[hongrn]

Dan,

That's awsome. I've got to try the ironing method. Contact cement is too nasty and expensive on top of that. Thanks for the tip.

Hong