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  1. #1

    Default 2-way Stage Monitor Project


    I'm planning on building some stage monitors with the following components:

    Eminence Delta Pro-12A (PE# 290-510)
    Selenium DH200e (PE# 264-255)
    Dayton Horn Lens 15-3/16"x5-1/8"x6" (PE# 270-099)
    Dayton 3.5K 2-way Cross-over (PE# 260-160)

    Also planning on tinkering with adding fixed L-pad and Zobel.

    I am interested in hearing from anyone who has suggestions for improving this arrangement for minimal cost increases. If you think I'm going about this wrong I'm also interested in any good advice.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Cleveland Ohio
    Posts
    229

    Default Re: 2-way Stage Monitor Project


    > I'm planning on building some stage monitors
    > with the following components:

    > Eminence Delta Pro-12A (PE# 290-510)
    > Selenium DH200e (PE# 264-255)
    > Dayton Horn Lens
    > 15-3/16"x5-1/8"x6" (PE#
    > 270-099)
    > Dayton 3.5K 2-way Cross-over (PE# 260-160)

    > Also planning on tinkering with adding fixed
    > L-pad and Zobel.

    > I am interested in hearing from anyone who
    > has suggestions for improving this
    > arrangement for minimal cost increases. If
    > you think I'm going about this wrong I'm
    > also interested in any good advice.

    The woofer has some nasty peaks above 2k and falls off sharply at 3k. Your crossover point is really too high. You could probably work it to a 2k crossover point and get something useable with that combo.

    Consider changing your HF driver to 290-446 which will work at a lower crossover point.

    Crossovers at 1.6k:
    290-634 (internal eminence branded, add your own jacks)
    260-160 (PE brand on jack plate)

    If you need to save money, the regular delta 12 woofer is 40 bucks cheaper and will probably also server you well. The magic is in the crossover...those won't be perfect, but should yield an ok result with some EQ tweaking.

    high pass at 80hz perhaps or even 100hz. Just cut on the EQ if there is no HP filter. You will definetly need to pad down the compression horn.

    Just my .02!
    -Matt

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Stittsville, Ontario
    Posts
    2,092

    Default Re: 2-way Stage Monitor Project


    I'm going to second what Chevyman suggested. Shoot for a 2khz crossover with those boxes and you will be in better shape. Consider the 1.6khz Dayton version, or the Selenium 2k model and add your own Lpad if necessary. You're probably gonna want a zobel on the woofer as well.
    Be sure to use a full metal grill over the whole cabinet. Good luck.

  4. #4

    Default Re: 2-way Stage Monitor Project


    > I'm going to second what Chevyman suggested.
    > Shoot for a 2khz crossover with those boxes
    > and you will be in better shape. Consider
    > the 1.6khz Dayton version, or the Selenium
    > 2k model and add your own Lpad if necessary.
    > You're probably gonna want a zobel on the
    > woofer as well.
    > Be sure to use a full metal grill over the
    > whole cabinet. Good luck.

    Thanks for the feedback. I'm thinking about building a Linkwitz-Riley/2nd order with a cross-over point of 2.13KHZ. At least that's what the Lalena calculator say a 1.2mh and 4.7uF will do. If you don't think this is a good idea, please feel free to give me a verbal skull-bashing.

    Thanks again,
    Mark

  5. #5

    Default Re: 2-way Stage Monitor Project


    Paul O,
    I noticed your response in another link about compression drivers. I forgot to ask you if the D210Ti might be a better sounding driver than the DH200E. Would I be better off sticking with the higher power rating for my application(medium to loud blues/rock).

    Mark

  6. #6

    Default Re: 2-way Stage Monitor Project


    > The woofer has some nasty peaks above 2k and
    > falls off sharply at 3k. Your crossover
    > point is really too high. You could probably
    > work it to a 2k crossover point and get
    > something useable with that combo.

    > Consider changing your HF driver to 290-446
    > which will work at a lower crossover point.

    > Crossovers at 1.6k:
    > 290-634 (internal eminence branded, add your
    > own jacks)
    > 260-160 (PE brand on jack plate)

    > If you need to save money, the regular delta
    > 12 woofer is 40 bucks cheaper and will
    > probably also server you well. The magic is
    > in the crossover...those won't be perfect,
    > but should yield an ok result with some EQ
    > tweaking.

    > high pass at 80hz perhaps or even 100hz.
    > Just cut on the EQ if there is no HP filter.
    > You will definetly need to pad down the
    > compression horn.

    > Just my .02!
    > -Matt

    Thanks for responding. Am working on a new cross-over.

    I'm really a novice at this. Don't know what you mean by high pass at 80-100Hz. Could you please explain.

    Thanks,
    Mark

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Stittsville, Ontario
    Posts
    2,092

    Default Re: 2-way Stage Monitor Project


    2khz looks like the sweet spot between the Delta and the comp driver... your target crossover looks good.
    The D210 is a nicer driver, period. It'll handle 160w with a 2khz crossover vs the DH200's 200w. But.. it's 4db louder than the DH up to 10khz, and 6db louder from 10-15khz.. so it's no contest really.. D210 all the way.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Cleveland Ohio
    Posts
    229

    Default Re: 2-way Stage Monitor Project


    > Thanks for responding. Am working on a new
    > cross-over.

    > I'm really a novice at this. Don't know what
    > you mean by high pass at 80-100Hz. Could you
    > please explain.

    > Thanks,
    > Mark

    No problem Mark! Generally you don't send low frequencies to your monitors except for the drummer. These helps cut down on muddiness on stage. If you have an EQ on your monitors you would just cut the sliders below 100hz. It's not needed to hear the vocals clearly anyhow so you aren't pushing the amps as hard. If you don't have any EQ on your monitors, then don't worry about it

    -Matt

  9. #9

    Default Re: 2-way Stage Monitor Project

    Provided Link: http://www.carvin.com/products/single.php?ItemNumber=DCM1015&CID=PWA


    > No problem Mark! Generally you don't send
    > low frequencies to your monitors except for
    > the drummer. These helps cut down on
    > muddiness on stage. If you have an EQ on
    > your monitors you would just cut the sliders
    > below 100hz. It's not needed to hear the
    > vocals clearly anyhow so you aren't pushing
    > the amps as hard. If you don't have any EQ
    > on your monitors, then don't worry about it
    >

    > -Matt

    Yeah, now I get it! I was thinking of using a Carvin 1015 amp with two of these boxes per side. One channel would be vocals and the other would have a little kick drum and bass as monitors near those two players.

    Thanks,
    Mark

  10. #10

    Default Re: 2-way Stage Monitor Project


    Paul O.,

    I've finally learned enough about crossovers to attempt designing one, although I'm not sure if it's on the right track. I did it using the PCD program from the FRD Consortium. The crossover point appears to be +/- 1800Hz. Wondering if you could critique it using whatever system you use? If needed I could send you .csp, .frd, and .zma files that I have.

    Thanks,

    Mark


  11. #11

    Default Open to Feedback


    Y'all,

    OOps! I figured this was getting posted to a thread back in August. Not meaning to leave anyone out if they are interested in this info. After all this is an open forum for the exchange of ideas. right? Well OK and to flip somebody a little innocent 'Bleep' once in a while.

    Seriously, this project involves a live sound application using Eminence Delta Pro-12A and Selenium Dh201Ti drivers. Also have info for using Eminence PSD2002 or Selenium DH200E for the HF driver. If anyone is interesed in sharing feedback or ideas on this, that would be mighty fine.

    Thanks,

    Mark

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Stittsville, Ontario
    Posts
    2,092

    Default Re: Open to Feedback


    I'm sure if you designed it with PCD it'll do what it says, withing tolerances. Maybe you could post the general design parameters with filter orders and any additional compensation used, a graph would be nice as well. I'd also be interested in what horn flare you intend to use and why you picked it. Obviously, the lower you cross the comp driver, the less it's power handling.. but this may not be an issue given it's sensitivity and the amount of power you plan to drive these with.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Open to Feedback *PIC*




    Hi Paul,

    Here's the skinny on what I'm trying to build.

    Low pass-2nd Order:

    1.8mH 15AWG .42DCR inductor
    10uF 400V capacitor

    Zobel:

    12uF 400V capacitor
    6.67 Ohm 120W resistor stack

    High pass-2nd Order:

    12uF 400V capacitor
    1.1mH 18AWG .57DCR inductor

    Fixed L-pad:

    series-5 Ohm 80W resistor stack
    parallel-3.125 40W resistor stack

    The cabinet will be a 2.25 cu. ft. floor wedge with two 2" Dia. X 1-1/4" long ports. Tuning is 55Hz. Any ideas on padding or stuffing box would be helpful.

    Thanks,
    Mark



  14. #14

    Default Re: Open to Feedback


    Oh yeah. I forgot to add that I was thinking of using the P.E. #270-302 or the 270-099 horn. Selesction is based entirely on cost at this point. I have no idea if this will have a substantial impact on the performance or not. If I had to I would probly go to the Selenium 25-25 horn

    Mark

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    North TX
    Posts
    2,110

    Default Re: Open to Feedback


    > Oh yeah. I forgot to add that I was thinking
    > of using the P.E. #270-302 or the 270-099
    > horn. Selesction is based entirely on cost
    > at this point. I have no idea if this will
    > have a substantial impact on the performance
    > or not. If I had to I would probly go to the
    > Selenium 25-25 horn

    > Mark

    Tweeter's frequency response will change from horn to horn. Directivity patterns affect mostly the upper octaves, away from the x/o. Near the x/o the horn path will change the location of the acoustic center.


  16. #16

    Default Re: Open to Feedback


    Warren,

    I am new to speaker design and am confused by your response. I don't know if you are saying that the crossover values will be invalid or if you are only saying that I will be less than happy with the way the horn disperses the sound.

    Selenium's response graph was plotted with the 14-25 long throw horn. This horn might not fit in the cabinet as it is 10+" deep without the driver. I am also guessing that it might not work because most of the time the monitors end up right at our feet because of small stage areas.

    Hope you can clear this up for me.

    Thanks,

    Mark
    > Tweeter's frequency response will change
    > from horn to horn. Directivity patterns
    > affect mostly the upper octaves, away from
    > the x/o. Near the x/o the horn path will
    > change the location of the acoustic center.


  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Stittsville, Ontario
    Posts
    2,092

    Default Re: Open to Feedback


    Acoustic center: If I'm not mistaken this is the percieved center of sound propagation from the combination of both drivers.
    The ideal config would be a coaxial arrangement. BUT fitting a horn big enough to allow the comp driver to extend low enough to meet the woofer... will physically block the woofer. Catch 22. So most designs will instead use a narrow horn mounted conventionally and as close to the low driver as possible.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Stittsville, Ontario
    Posts
    2,092

    Default Re: Open to Feedback


    I like your horn choices, BTW, these plus others will give good results. If I ever get the time, I'm going to purchase a selection of horns and try to do some measurements and comparisons. I'm particulalry interested in the conical waveguide flares that PE now has.. <A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=270-312">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=270-312</A>
    Not sure if Warren has any experience with these but if so feel free to comment.
    Lining the box is a good idea for a monitor, IMHO, you want to control resonances and minimize feedback by definition.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    North TX
    Posts
    2,110

    Default Re: Open to Feedback


    > Acoustic center: If I'm not mistaken this is
    > the percieved center of sound propagation
    > from the combination of both drivers.

    Also, the reference from which "zero phase" is assumed when using minimum-phase response data in something like PCD. The delta between woof and tweet has to be assumed (measure the distance between the VC's and it's close enough for PA work). Assuming that was correct to begin with, if you swap horns you need to change that Z offset distance (or equivalent time dealy). Or you end up with a dip somewhere near the intended crossover frequency. May not be bad enough to worry about, but it still won't come out as modeled.



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