Sad circumstances for inexpensive array designs

[marlboro]

REcently I've had a number of people write to me by email asking my advice on very inexpensive arrays.

Sadly, this is getting harder and harder. Very nice small 3-4.5 inch mids or mini woofers are becoming scarce. Nobody including PE sells them anymore. The age of the $3 Bravox or SAMMI 3.5 inch mid with the 3.5 mm Xmax may be over. These have to be used with a real woofer, of course, since without it, anything below 120hz is mush.

And without something below 4 - 4.5 inches, you cannot any longer use the Dayton Neo's for tweeters due to horizontal combing issues. And as it is, you have to cut the flanges on them to the metal with a scroll saw, and use at least 32 of them per channel.

Currently, there is no inexpensive 3-4.5 inch driver that I would buy, to compliment 32 Dayton Neos---none. Buying one of these for $13 each, and putting 34 of them on a baffle is $442. Don't do that, get a larger 18- 6.5 - 8 inch woofer for maybe $14 each, and 10 B& G Neo Ribbons.

Additionally people talk about doing this without electronic crossovers. Its hard enough to build a quality crossover for a set of point source speakers. To do it adequately for an array, you need to hire Rick Craig to build one for you for $300, and then you will still need to buy the parts and put them together for yourself.

The day of building a minimum quality line array for less than $700 just for the speakers, is GONE. And then you will need the appropriate electronic crossover(or expensive passive design), and various amps, even at ebay for another $500. And then you have to build the enclosure.

For a line array that you will actually like, expect to spend a minimum of $1500 if you're a good woodworker DIYer, and more if you are not. And if you want top of the line, then allow $2500 - $3500 if you design and build it all by yourself, and add more for the electronics.

Marlboro

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> REcently I've had a number of people write
> to me by email asking my advice on very
> inexpensive arrays.

> Sadly, this is getting harder and harder.
> Very nice small 3-4.5 inch mids or mini
> woofers are becoming scarce. Nobody
> including PE sells them anymore. The age of
> the $3 Bravox or SAMMI 3.5 inch mid with the
> 3.5 mm Xmax may be over. These have to be
> used with a real woofer, of course, since
> without it, anything below 120hz is mush.

> And without something below 4 - 4.5 inches,
> you cannot any longer use the Dayton Neo's
> for tweeters due to horizontal combing
> issues. And as it is, you have to cut the
> flanges on them to the metal with a scroll
> saw, and use at least 32 of them per
> channel.

> Currently, there is no inexpensive 3-4.5
> inch driver that I would buy, to compliment
> 32 Dayton Neos---none. Buying one of these
> for $13 each, and putting 34 of them on a
> baffle is $442. Don't do that, get a larger
> 18- 6.5 - 8 inch woofer for maybe $14 each,
> and 10 B& G Neo Ribbons.

> Additionally people talk about doing this
> without electronic crossovers. Its hard
> enough to build a quality crossover for a
> set of point source speakers. To do it
> adequately for an array, you need to hire
> Rick Craig to build one for you for $300,
> and then you will still need to buy the
> parts and put them together for yourself.

> The day of building a minimum quality line
> array for less than $700 just for the
> speakers, is GONE. And then you will need
> the appropriate electronic crossover(or
> expensive passive design), and various amps,
> even at ebay for another $500. And then you
> have to build the enclosure.

> For a line array that you will actually
> like, expect to spend a minimum of $1500 if
> you're a good woodworker DIYer, and more if
> you are not. And if you want top of the
> line, then allow $2500 - $3500 if you design
> and build it all by yourself, and add more
> for the electronics.

> Marlboro

The Hi Vi B3N is less than $10. Granted, it's not as cheap as those buyouts, but it's also a fine bit better driver too.

[neildavis]

Here's a longer list that includes the HiVi's:

All Electronics has a 4" speaker with a 10oz magnet for $5.50, this is the link: <A HREF="http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/SK-480/580/4">http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/item/SK-480/580/4</A>"#34;_8_OHM_SPEAKER_.html

The 3" speaker at Alltronics looks promising: <A HREF="http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/95V015/53/6">http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/95V015/53/6</A>%2DOhm%2D3%22%2DSpeaker

Skycraft has an interesting 2" driver for $3.50: <A HREF="http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...ROD&ProdID=617">http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...ROD&ProdID=617</A>
and a Sanyo 2-1/2" for $3.95: <A HREF="http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...OD&ProdID=1073">http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...OD&ProdID=1073</A>
and a 4" for $4: <A HREF="http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...ROD&ProdID=618">http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...ROD&ProdID=618</A>

MCM has a couple of 4" drivers that are $4-$6: 52-195, LS00930

Winkasette sells a couple of good looking 4" drivers on ebay, but they are $8-11:
<A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/CAST-4-1-2-MID-M...QQcmdZViewItem">http://cgi.ebay.com/CAST-4-1-2-MID-M...QQcmdZViewItem</A>
<A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/4-EOSONE-POLK-1R...QQcmdZViewItem">http://cgi.ebay.com/4-EOSONE-POLK-1R...QQcmdZViewItem</A>

and some 5" drivers for $6-$7: <A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/FAT-SURROUND-5-1...QQcmdZViewItem">http://cgi.ebay.com/FAT-SURROUND-5-1...QQcmdZViewItem</A>
<A HREF="http://cgi.ebay.com/HIGH-END-LAMINAT...QQcmdZViewItem">http://cgi.ebay.com/HIGH-END-LAMINAT...QQcmdZViewItem</A>

Zalytron has the Audax 4" HT110G0 drivers for $9.

PE, Speakercity and AudioLab of Georgia all sell the Goldwood 4" for $7.50

Madisound has some nice small Hi-Vi's for about $9

The Onkyo full range at Madisound is $5.50

[marlboro]

Thanks. I'LL CHECK THEM OUT.

The All electronic item appear to actually be the Sammi that i used.

Marlboro

[damkor]

> Sadly, this is getting harder and harder.
> Very nice small 3-4.5 inch mids or mini
> woofers are becoming scarce.

I like the $11 Aurasound at Madisound:

<A HREF="http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind....3379&pid=1705">http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind....3379&pid=1705</A>

I think you mean the cheap ones are becoming rare. The very nice ones are getting better and better. I like the T-B Bamboo.

> Additionally people talk about doing this
> without electronic crossovers. Its hard
> enough to build a quality crossover for a
> set of point source speakers.

Granted, I've never built a line array, but I don't follow this line of reasoning. Put the woofers in the box, decide on a measuring/listening position and equalize the response from 120Hz to 2,500Hz. Then, do the same for the tweeters from 2,500Hz on. Or, do both sections at the same time. Are there additional issues of difficulty with line arrays that I'm not aware of?

[marlboro]

Are
> there additional issues of difficulty with
> line arrays that I'm not aware of?

Yes. Download Dr. Jim Griffin, Line Array white paper. search Google for "line array" Griffin "whitepaper"

Marlboro

[marlboro]

Its all a matter of costs and what you want to pay.

If you have no problems paying $2000, then you can buy any small speaker you want.

But the key here is using domes and their requirements, and keeping the price down below 900 bucks. If the total goes above $900 for the speakers by themselves, then you want to go a different route.

Marlboro

[jbescup]

Hey guys, this is a great thread, information like this is exactly what I'm looking for right now... a suitable 3-5" or so full range driver for a 1-driver line array. Based on the comments I've heard so far it sound like that TB bamboo would be the best choice for absolute fidelity, although with its comparatively high price tag it might not be the best candidate for a line array. If I could find some cheaper drivers still with decently high quality I think those would be the ticket. Any more suggestions..? It's good to see what options are out there. I'll be following this one =)

[bogie]

Look for decent extension in the low end, but you also want a fairly smallish box size. If you're starting with a single speak (actually dual stackers), here's what I'd look for...

4" drivers (you'll need 16-20 of 'em)
small box size, either sealed or vented
capability for a low tune
decent full-range sound up past 10K
good sensitivity - 85db or up
good power handling - if you can throw 500 watts at the array, that's a good thing - you want headroom

I'd likely go with a Crown XLS402 or a Behringer EP1500 for the amp, and also add an equalizer (pretty much required). If you can get one with a subwoofer output built in (Behringer FBQ3102), add one of Fitz's 10" autotubas or a Tuba24 for your low end. Run the line on one side of the amp, and the sub on the other (sub won't get a lot of work, but it'll add a bit...).

> Hey guys, this is a great thread,
> information like this is exactly what I'm
> looking for right now... a suitable
> 3-5" or so full range driver for a
> 1-driver line array. Based on the comments
> I've heard so far it sound like that TB
> bamboo would be the best choice for absolute
> fidelity, although with its comparatively
> high price tag it might not be the best
> candidate for a line array. If I could find
> some cheaper drivers still with decently
> high quality I think those would be the
> ticket. Any more suggestions..? It's good to
> see what options are out there. I'll be
> following this one =)

[thylantyr]

inexpensive line array is an oxymoron?

lol

[marlboro]

Its an onion ring, not an oxymoron. There are levels of anything, including line arrays.

> inexpensive line array is an oxymoron?

> lol

[wg_ski]

> Its an onion ring, not an oxymoron. There
> are levels of anything, including line
> arrays.

If you are going to put that much WORK into a project, does it really pay to use the cheapest available components? It will take the same amount of effort and time if you use 99 cent drivers as $15-20 ones. The results will not be as good if you get off cheap and it will have taken just as much time as if you had Done It Right (t.m.).

[marlboro]

You're right to a point, Warren.

The point is how much money you can spend and what you want to have. If you want to use a line array and you want to do it as inexpensively as possible, you have a minimum that you can spend and still get reasonable quality.

I am not one of those people who believe in using 99cent midranges(or those awful onkyos). I believe in a reasonable list price mid range and a fairly decent tweeter.

My point is that you can go inexpensively if you can find the right less than $8 midrange, and you can use the Dayton Neo tweeters. A group of 64 of them for two channels is $262. In a group this big, their FR flattens hugely, and their already good distortion levels drop to something vanishing. But they are the only domes of any reasonable quality that I have found since a 1 inch c-to-c is the maximum you can use to avoid audible combing in the nearfield in the upper frequencies.

To use domes for the tweeter element you also have to use a midrange of less than 4 inches to avoid horizontal combing. And this means that you need one of resonable cost since you will need about 34 of them. 34 - 5.50 Sammi wideranges which originlly retailed for $17(and which have a nice x-max of 3.5) costs $187.

You will need a woofer with these of at least 10 inch, and two quality of these will run you about $140.

So now your speaker costs are 187 + 140 + 262 = $589 for speakers. You still have to build it and you still have to deal with the active or passive crossovers. But if your budget is around $900, you can get a pretty decent system that will blow away most anything int he point source variety at that level.

But...... all this changes if you are unable to find a decent 4 inch or lower midrange for less than $7. First of all it means that you can't use domes anymore. Second of all, it means that your cost is going up, and since you can't use domes you are going to be using eitehr planars or ribbons, and if you use them, then you have to use a mid woofer closer to6.5 - 8 inches to keep the costs down.

Now you need 18 mid woofers for about 19 each = 342, and you'll need 14 planars at about 30 each = 420. 342 + 420 = 762. You may not need a woofer, but you might. So now your costs for the speakers are above $800 without the woofer, the crossover, and the cabinets.

So you can see it all hinges on the availability of a top quality buyout below 4 inches which is also less than $8 each, or the options just about $500 instantly.

You can of course, buy the best of the tweeters(B & G Neo ribbons at $60 each(you'll need about 14) or $840, and you can go for a really quality midrange of about $30 each(you'll need 18 to 30 of them 540 to 900).....and it just keeps going.

Marlboro

[wg_ski]

My point was that if you're going to take the time and trouble to build a line array why limit yourself to only $500 worth of drivers? A line array isn't something you slap together over a single weekend - it's a pretty substantial time investment. As someone stated in a recent pro-sound post "If you can't afford a line array you don't need a line array". If you expect outstanding results, and if your budget were that limited, you'd proably get better results with a more conventional speaker system using the same money. If you want to experiment around with arrays inexpensively, you don't absolutely have to follow the ctc rules religiously. You get a compromise - which is what you ultimately get with $4 midranges anyway.

[marlboro]

My dad used to have a response similiar to this.

He said: "Son if you can't afford to purchase a decent quality car like a Mercedes or a Peugot, then you have no business owning a car at all".

I said, "But Dad, I can afford to pay for a car like that."

he said: "Well then hitch rides from your friends and ride the bus until you can afford to buy something of real quality, because consider all the effort you put into cars and the time riding them. Don't ever ever buy something cheap, always buy the best, and do without until you can buy the best."

Problem was that my dad could always afford the best, so he never had to survive like he wanted me to do, and so he had no idea about what he was saying to me.

Marlboro

[wg_ski]

> he said: "Well then hitch rides from
> your friends and ride the bus until you can
> afford to buy something of real quality,
> because consider all the effort you put into
> cars and the time riding them. Don't ever
> ever buy something cheap, always buy the
> best, and do without until you can buy the
> best."

I wouldn't quite go that far. But if the only car you can afford is a $600 piece of **** that runs when it wants to, won't pass inspection, and it's a struggle every month just to pay the insurance, I'd ditch the stupid thing.

[marlboro]

And from personal experience, having built it, I wouldn't go so far as to say that an array with (buy out) 17 Sammi 3.5 inchers/channel(originally 17 bucks each), and 32 Dayton Neo tweeters/channel, and one 12 inch DVC 15mm Xmax Goldsound woofer in a 8.6 cu ft ported enclosure, is the same as a bum car that you describe.

The bottom line is that you can build an array that will cost you $2000 in just the speakers, or you can build one with speakers that cost you about $600. But the $2000 one will not be three times better. You would notice a difference, but maybe not $1400 worth of difference.

Especially in DIY speaker design we must be ever so careful not to slide into elitism.

Marlboro