My take on the IN-DIY-BASH...(LONG)

[Wolf]

I woke up at 7:15 AM, and couldn't sleep any more. I've been up since, and it was a long and enjoyable day with about a dozen speaks in attendance, and an official count of 20 people.

We setup in the 1.5 hrs before 10, allowing to pick a quartet of routine tracks for the day:

Norah Jones- "Broken"
Resphigi- Queen of Sheba suite
Kick the Kat- (Jazz ensemble friends of Undefinition)- ?
Presenter's choice

Shawn's YAM-V's (RS125/AC)sounded nice and sweet with only an 'echo' of my concern possibly from one recording. He lucked out with some poly-caps, and some interconnects.

dlneubec- He brought a pair of dipoles(mini-Nao), a pair of omni's, and a single 'wave-omni'. I felt the dipoles had a reflection off the front wall causing trouble. Otherwise good. The omni-pair sounded nice, but the single wave-monster did an impressive job! We listened to it in mono, and it even avoided the usual room-boom that has plagued the Hampton-conference-rooms in the past. Darren pointed out that the orientation of the dual RS225 was probably the reason for this. dl's woodworking is very nice indeed! He received a sheet of damping rubber-flooring that I threw in the pot, and a set of new Jantzen steel-core coils.

Pete brought his "clampified" Shumakubins, due to the unfinished assembly process. They were dynamic, clear, but IMO, lacked a midrange 'presence'. It's not that the midrange was absent, but constrained/hindered. They are BIG too! As he said, he received the Aura Ti tweeters, donated by dl'.

PaulK found himself tapping his 'starchy-classical' foot to some "Disturbed" later this evening. =-) He brought his TuLines, and they sounded nice. Solid cabinetry. We discussed 'the' short-coming as a CTC distance dilemma, but otherwise they were brilliant. This was the first time I heard the Fountek tweeters, and I really don't notice much of a difference in character between the AC and these. Paul got a router-buddy! Thanks for letting us use your equipment!

LeoF brought a set of old Ebay-bought Ohm-Walsh speakers in Quikrete 2.6ft^3 tubes. VERY IMPRESSIVE! I was NOT expecting the sound and depth from those. Again- these were omni's for those unfamiliar with the driver's orientation.

A commercial dude, Larry Parker, brought a PC USB-DAC, a heavy 10W ClassA SE 0-feedback tube amp, and a set of 'different' horn-loaded FosteX 6.5" full-range drivers. He helped them with a Yammie sub, and Eminence supertweeter. I liked the DAC, nuff $ed.

Robert walked out with some 15" tubes as a door prize that I donated. We momentarily used some undisclosed(?) PE-future products in the setup of a classic or IB proto18" subwoofer. It just set face-first on the tubes. We put the rubber-pad on the floor, and used MikeV as a weight-clamp to keep the 18 in place atop the tubes whilst pumping some 'Zombie. That gave us the (ab)normal 'dlsbobby' type grins for the day, and MikeV "picked up some good vibrations".

I believe that is it 'cept for me. I brought the Audinum TM's, the Sir Audinum MTM's, the Rubyks, and the Scandivifias; played in that order. Criticisms/raves were as follows: The Sir's were "forward" or "awesome" as stated by a few attendees. The Audinums were "balanced", and bose-beating "fantastic imagers". The Rubyks faired better than I gave them credit, and the paint scheme was loved by all I talked to. Most liked their sound. The Scandivifias were the second to last played in the day, and it sounds like the attendees felt them worth the wait. I think Pete was in love. (Awww...) Vocal layers in a 4/5 piece harmony was clear and precise, and bass was taught and deep. They looked really nice atop dl's dipole-stands. I may make some similar. No- I didn't pay full-price for the 8530s.

Lunch for most was at Ruby-Tuesday's, and it was some good sustenance indeed! (No Burritos were harmed in the making of the end of today's events.)

Thanks once again to El Burrito "Marmot" Bandito for putting on this event, and inviting us to descend upon the tiny town of Richmond and wreak some aural havoc.
Later,
Wolf

[envisionelec]

> I woke up at 7:15 AM, and couldn't sleep any
> more. I've been up since, and it was a long
> and enjoyable day with about a dozen speaks
> in attendance, and an official count of 20
> people.

> We setup in the 1.5 hrs before 10, allowing
> to pick a quartet of routine tracks for the
> day:

> Norah Jones- "Broken"
> Resphigi- Queen of Sheba suite
> Kick the Kat- (Jazz ensemble friends of
> Undefinition)- ?
> Presenter's choice

> Shawn's YAM-V's (RS125/AC)sounded nice and
> sweet with only an 'echo' of my concern
> possibly from one recording. He lucked out
> with some poly-caps, and some interconnects.

> dlneubec- He brought a pair of
> dipoles(mini-Nao), a pair of omni's, and a
> single 'wave-omni'. I felt the dipoles had a
> reflection off the front wall causing
> trouble. Otherwise good. The omni-pair
> sounded nice, but the single wave-monster
> did an impressive job! We listened to it in
> mono, and it even avoided the usual
> room-boom that has plagued the
> Hampton-conference-rooms in the past. Darren
> pointed out that the orientation of the dual
> RS225 was probably the reason for this. dl's
> woodworking is very nice indeed! He received
> a sheet of damping rubber-flooring that I
> threw in the pot, and a set of new Jantzen
> steel-core coils.

> Pete brought his "clampified"
> Shumakubins, due to the unfinished assembly
> process. They were dynamic, clear, but IMO,
> lacked a midrange 'presence'. It's not that
> the midrange was absent, but
> constrained/hindered. They are BIG too! As
> he said, he received the Aura Ti tweeters,
> donated by dl'.

> PaulK found himself tapping his
> 'starchy-classical' foot to some
> "Disturbed" later this evening.
> =-) He brought his TuLines, and they sounded
> nice. Solid cabinetry. We discussed 'the'
> short-coming as a CTC distance dilemma, but
> otherwise they were brilliant. This was the
> first time I heard the Fountek tweeters, and
> I really don't notice much of a difference
> in character between the AC and these. Paul
> got a router-buddy! Thanks for letting us
> use your equipment!

> LeoF brought a set of old Ebay-bought
> Ohm-Walsh speakers in Quikrete 2.6ft^3
> tubes. VERY IMPRESSIVE! I was NOT expecting
> the sound and depth from those. Again- these
> were omni's for those unfamiliar with the
> driver's orientation.

> A commercial dude, Larry Parker, brought a
> PC USB-DAC, a heavy 10W ClassA SE 0-feedback
> tube amp, and a set of 'different'
> horn-loaded FosteX 6.5" full-range
> drivers. He helped them with a Yammie sub,
> and Eminence supertweeter. I liked the DAC,
> nuff $ed.

> Robert walked out with some 15" tubes
> as a door prize that I donated. We
> momentarily used some undisclosed(?)
> PE-future products in the setup of a classic
> or IB proto18" subwoofer. It just set
> face-first on the tubes. We put the
> rubber-pad on the floor, and used MikeV as a
> weight-clamp to keep the 18 in place atop
> the tubes whilst pumping some 'Zombie. That
> gave us the (ab)normal 'dlsbobby' type grins
> for the day, and MikeV "picked up some
> good vibrations".

> I believe that is it 'cept for me. I brought
> the Audinum TM's, the Sir Audinum MTM's, the
> Rubyks, and the Scandivifias; played in that
> order. Criticisms/raves were as follows: The
> Sir's were "forward" or
> "awesome" as stated by a few
> attendees. The Audinums were
> "balanced", and bose-beating
> "fantastic imagers". The Rubyks
> faired better than I gave them credit, and
> the paint scheme was loved by all I talked
> to. Most liked their sound. The Scandivifias
> were the second to last played in the day,
> and it sounds like the attendees felt them
> worth the wait. I think Pete was in love.
> (Awww...) Vocal layers in a 4/5 piece
> harmony was clear and precise, and bass was
> taught and deep. They looked really nice
> atop dl's dipole-stands. I may make some
> similar. No- I didn't pay full-price for the
> 8530s.

> Lunch for most was at Ruby-Tuesday's, and it
> was some good sustenance indeed! (No
> Burritos were harmed in the making of the
> end of today's events.)

> Thanks once again to El Burrito
> "Marmot" Bandito for putting on
> this event, and inviting us to descend upon
> the tiny town of Richmond and wreak some
> aural havoc.
> Later,
> Wolf

Sorry that I had to leave early. I enjoyed myself thoroughly.

Did my name get drawn, by chance?

[Wolf]

MikeV introduced us to his "Tubularities =-)" that we have seen before in the flier. RNR! These are definite party slammers, but with a clarity unexpected. "SHOUT....SHOUT...."
Later,
Wolf

[Wolf]

> Sorry that I had to leave early. I enjoyed
> myself thoroughly.

Good to hear that! Thanks for your comments.

> Did my name get drawn, by chance?

I really don't recall. Sorry.
Later,
Wolf

[bogie]

> Pete brought his "clampified"
> Shumakubins, due to the unfinished assembly
> process. They were dynamic, clear, but IMO,
> lacked a midrange 'presence'. It's not that
> the midrange was absent, but
> constrained/hindered. They are BIG too! As
> he said, he received the Aura Ti tweeters,
> donated by dl'.

When I listened to his original Schumakubins (before he toasted the first set of drivers...), I thought the general sound was very comparable to my maggie MMGs... I think the mids seem a little depressed because of the low end that is available. A lot of "commercial" speaks seem to push the mids a little, but that drives me nuts...

[robert]

> When I listened to his original Schumakubins
> (before he toasted the first set of
> drivers...), I thought the general sound was
> very comparable to my maggie MMGs... I think
> the mids seem a little depressed because of
> the low end that is available. A lot of
> "commercial" speaks seem to push
> the mids a little, but that drives me
> nuts...

Everything was super-interesting and showed different ears and tastes. I think the large room was a serious conttributor to the low bass. Best of Show? I don't know...lots of different strengths.

Did anyone pick up on my Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow track being the "presto" movement of Beethoven's 9th A'la Electrique??? Sacrilege, lol...It's the last track on the "Difficult to Cure" CD.

Cheers/Robert

[Jim Holtz]

> PaulK found himself tapping his
> 'starchy-classical' foot to some
> "Disturbed" later this evening.
> =-) He brought his TuLines, and they sounded
> nice. Solid cabinetry. We discussed 'the'
> short-coming as a CTC distance dilemma, but
> otherwise they were brilliant. This was the
> first time I heard the Fountek tweeters, and
> I really don't notice much of a difference
> in character between the AC and these. Paul
> got a router-buddy! Thanks for letting us
> use your equipment!

Hi Wolf,

Good summary but I'm not understanding this comment about CTC distance. Can up elaborate a bit?

Thanks!

Jim

[Paul K.]

While Wolf liked the TuLines, he thought the Alicantes I had at Springboro were better. I explained that as a 3-way, the bottom woofer, which is further away, in the TuLines likely doesn't integrate as well with the RS52 as the upper woofer, which is closer to the midrange. If it were a 3.5-way, it'd probably be perfect. Nevertheless, the TuLines are pretty darned good (no immodesty intended) and neither Wolf's nor my comments regarding this minor shortcoming shoud be construed as a poor reflection on the crossover designed by Rick.
Paul K.

> Hi Wolf,

> Good summary but I'm not understanding this
> comment about CTC distance. Can up elaborate
> a bit?

> Thanks!

> Jim

[Paul K.]

I had a great time and thoroughly enjoyed being the official DJ. As far as I'm concerned, Dan's Mentors were the best in show. These had the dual RS180s, one firing up and one firing down above and below an RS28 (I think), plus a built-in 12-inch powered subwoofer. Absolutely clean and clear sound across the board. And Dan's woodworking skills make me want to go hide in a corner of my workshop. When I saw Mike V. had included one Router Buddy in the door prizes, I hoped I could get it, and whadayuknow, I did! Thanks Mike and a really BIG thanks to Shawn for hosting this event.
Paul K.

> I woke up at 7:15 AM, and couldn't sleep any
> more. I've been up since, and it was a long
> and enjoyable day with about a dozen speaks
> in attendance, and an official count of 20
> people.

> We setup in the 1.5 hrs before 10, allowing
> to pick a quartet of routine tracks for the
> day:

> Norah Jones- "Broken"
> Resphigi- Queen of Sheba suite
> Kick the Kat- (Jazz ensemble friends of
> Undefinition)- ?
> Presenter's choice

> Shawn's YAM-V's (RS125/AC)sounded nice and
> sweet with only an 'echo' of my concern
> possibly from one recording. He lucked out
> with some poly-caps, and some interconnects.

> dlneubec- He brought a pair of
> dipoles(mini-Nao), a pair of omni's, and a
> single 'wave-omni'. I felt the dipoles had a
> reflection off the front wall causing
> trouble. Otherwise good. The omni-pair
> sounded nice, but the single wave-monster
> did an impressive job! We listened to it in
> mono, and it even avoided the usual
> room-boom that has plagued the
> Hampton-conference-rooms in the past. Darren
> pointed out that the orientation of the dual
> RS225 was probably the reason for this. dl's
> woodworking is very nice indeed! He received
> a sheet of damping rubber-flooring that I
> threw in the pot, and a set of new Jantzen
> steel-core coils.

> Pete brought his "clampified"
> Shumakubins, due to the unfinished assembly
> process. They were dynamic, clear, but IMO,
> lacked a midrange 'presence'. It's not that
> the midrange was absent, but
> constrained/hindered. They are BIG too! As
> he said, he received the Aura Ti tweeters,
> donated by dl'.

> PaulK found himself tapping his
> 'starchy-classical' foot to some
> "Disturbed" later this evening.
> =-) He brought his TuLines, and they sounded
> nice. Solid cabinetry. We discussed 'the'
> short-coming as a CTC distance dilemma, but
> otherwise they were brilliant. This was the
> first time I heard the Fountek tweeters, and
> I really don't notice much of a difference
> in character between the AC and these. Paul
> got a router-buddy! Thanks for letting us
> use your equipment!

> LeoF brought a set of old Ebay-bought
> Ohm-Walsh speakers in Quikrete 2.6ft^3
> tubes. VERY IMPRESSIVE! I was NOT expecting
> the sound and depth from those. Again- these
> were omni's for those unfamiliar with the
> driver's orientation.

> A commercial dude, Larry Parker, brought a
> PC USB-DAC, a heavy 10W ClassA SE 0-feedback
> tube amp, and a set of 'different'
> horn-loaded FosteX 6.5" full-range
> drivers. He helped them with a Yammie sub,
> and Eminence supertweeter. I liked the DAC,
> nuff $ed.

> Robert walked out with some 15" tubes
> as a door prize that I donated. We
> momentarily used some undisclosed(?)
> PE-future products in the setup of a classic
> or IB proto18" subwoofer. It just set
> face-first on the tubes. We put the
> rubber-pad on the floor, and used MikeV as a
> weight-clamp to keep the 18 in place atop
> the tubes whilst pumping some 'Zombie. That
> gave us the (ab)normal 'dlsbobby' type grins
> for the day, and MikeV "picked up some
> good vibrations".

> I believe that is it 'cept for me. I brought
> the Audinum TM's, the Sir Audinum MTM's, the
> Rubyks, and the Scandivifias; played in that
> order. Criticisms/raves were as follows: The
> Sir's were "forward" or
> "awesome" as stated by a few
> attendees. The Audinums were
> "balanced", and bose-beating
> "fantastic imagers". The Rubyks
> faired better than I gave them credit, and
> the paint scheme was loved by all I talked
> to. Most liked their sound. The Scandivifias
> were the second to last played in the day,
> and it sounds like the attendees felt them
> worth the wait. I think Pete was in love.
> (Awww...) Vocal layers in a 4/5 piece
> harmony was clear and precise, and bass was
> taught and deep. They looked really nice
> atop dl's dipole-stands. I may make some
> similar. No- I didn't pay full-price for the
> 8530s.

> Lunch for most was at Ruby-Tuesday's, and it
> was some good sustenance indeed! (No
> Burritos were harmed in the making of the
> end of today's events.)

> Thanks once again to El Burrito
> "Marmot" Bandito for putting on
> this event, and inviting us to descend upon
> the tiny town of Richmond and wreak some
> aural havoc.
> Later,
> Wolf

[Jim Holtz]

> While Wolf liked the TuLines, he thought the
> Alicantes I had at Springboro were better. I
> explained that as a 3-way, the bottom
> woofer, which is further away, in the
> TuLines likely doesn't integrate as well
> with the RS52 as the upper woofer, which is
> closer to the midrange. If it were a
> 3.5-way, it'd probably be perfect.
> Nevertheless, the TuLines are pretty darned
> good (no immodesty intended) and neither
> Wolf's nor my comments regarding this minor
> shortcoming shoud be construed as a poor
> reflection on the crossover designed by
> Rick.
> Paul K.

Thanks for the clarification Paul. It sounds as if everyone had a great time yesterday.

Jim

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> When I listened to his original Schumakubins
> (before he toasted the first set of
> drivers...), I thought the general sound was
> very comparable to my maggie MMGs... I think
> the mids seem a little depressed because of
> the low end that is available. A lot of
> "commercial" speaks seem to push
> the mids a little, but that drives me
> nuts...

The room, and especially where you sat in the room, had a real effect on what you heard. That became apparent when they were playing with the 18" Dayton. As I walked from the back to the front of the room, bass changed quite a bit, and it was mostly affecting the very low bass. All the smaller speakers with no low end sounded nicely balanced overall, but when the real full range systems came up, bass was an issue. The room was closed. If we were able to open it up as in windows and doors, we could have greatly improved the bottom couple of octaves.

For example, when Wolf ran his small guys with the tiny woofers, no issue. When he brought up the ScandVifas, they had just enough low end to begin to sound a little heavy, but only if there was content down there. I brought along a vocal only track with layered harmonies as my "designers choice" and the clarity of the voices on the ScandVifas was just excellent. Not a hint of that heaviness. And the same was true of the MTMWW. As long as there was no real content down real low, I found the overall presentation to be very similar in the placement of the soprano, tenor, alto, baritone and bass in both volume and tone. But I still prefer the overall presentation of that piece on the MTMWW. There's just a different sound I think that's due to the physical distribution of drivers. It just makes a "bigger" soundstage. There was a certain something to the detail in the mids the scans were able to pull out though.

But if I need a pair of speakers for a large room to reproduce full orchestra and be able to deliver on the low end some realistic big drum action, I'll take the MTMWW over the two-way monitor.

The nicest overall sound to me yesterday was dl's omni MTMW with active low end. I could tell a little bit of strain coming through on some passages, but that was totally due to the fact that the in-line filter was incompatible with the amp, so instead of being crossed around 100Hz, the RS180s were being pushed full range. On the larger peaks, I heard some compression and clipping during a couple of passages. But if the amp wasn't turned up as loud and the RS180s stayed linear, the sound was full, detailed. And being able to dial-in the low amp balance to suit was a nice advantage. I don't care what anyone says, a good, dedicated sub for the left and right is really the way to go. Oh, and they looked really great. The man is a cabinet making genius.

The mono-omni we heard employed the RS52 and ND20 firing upward into flared cones to deflect the sound into the room. Again, they had an overall balance problem I think partly due to the room. They stood on a pair of RS225 crossed to the RS52 at around 550Hz. Again, on material with low bass, the overall sound seemed a bit heavy and the RS52 seemed to be straining a bit during the louder passages, not heard at all on the TuLines where it's crossed around 750Hz. I'm thinking if DL replaces the RS52 with a nice 4" or 5" mid, he could cross lower and better integrate to the dual RS225s. At least the RS125 can handle the 500Hz XO point much better.

Speaking of RS125s, Shawn's version with the ribbon tweet sounded pretty darn good. That little woofer is really amazing, but I still have that question, lingering since Dan Akroyd first asked, "Is shimmer a desert topping or a floor cleaner?" I may give that little woofer a shot, paired with my remaining set of 27TBFCs crossed around 1800Hz, or maybe my old Dynaudio D21 at 2500Hz.

I too was really surprised by the Walsh driver. One was dented, stuck on top of some sonotubes. Uglier speakers you could not think up . . . well maybe not. But when they powered up, I was shocked. These things had to be at least 20 years old and consisted of a roughly 6" highish Q woofer and tweeter behind a steel mesh cage. What emerged was quite nice sound, with fairly full range.

The TuLines were great. Excellent cabinet work and finish. And while generally not a fan of ribbons for reasons I've stated many times, this was handled correctly. The RS52 was crossed high enough to keep the ribbon in its most linear frequency range, minimizing the "shimmer," otherwise known as HD products. I guess my only problem with the RS180 as a woofer in a 3-way is that it just doesn't play as deep as I'd like to go, even with the MLTL. I wonder what a deeper tuning would do, slightly longer port????

What can I say about the Fostex "horns" we heard? Well, considering 10W was driving them, they did fill the room nicely, but these things focused sound like a pair of cannons. They crossed around 200Hz to some Yamaha active subs. Overall, the sound was pretty balanced, nothing obnoxious, but I did hear either the amp clipping or the fostex on some of the more intense passages. Since my wife was along, she gave me her SAF on them as a resounding "you've got to be kidding" based on their industrial look.

And the valve amp. What can I say. A thing of beauty. Nicely crafted and you could tell the creator was extremely proud of his 85 pound beast. But at $6500, you better be buying it because of its statement as art, not because its heft as an amp. It performed well enough with the fostex, so the Tulines were then connected since they're a more normal 88dB system, and the glass amp gave all she had to give. Very clean sound. He asked if anyone else wanted to try, so what the heck? The MTMWW is an easier load for the amp than the TuLines, but they're even less sensitive. Still, I was surprised by the performance. Where it was quite apparent was in the bass region. There just wasn't the nice, tight control of bass as there was with the SS 150W amp. Then again, what may have sounded like lack of control was dynamic range limitations.

I'd like to hear that amp again, but next time on a high impedance line array . . .

[Paul Carmody]

It was no short drive down from Chicago, but I really enjoyed myself. Being a relative newbie, I had nothing really worth showing off. I just wanted some inspiration, and to share in some good old fashioned speaker geekiness.

The big surprises:
dlneubec's (prototype) omnidirectional speaker - it was phenomenal, and it was the one thing I noticed everyone kept mumbling about under their breath for the rest of the day . Also, if only the guy gave woodworking classes...

the quickrete tubes - it was a real head-scratcher, and to the average person, you would have no way of knowing they were speakers. As he said, 20 year-old technology. But they were really pretty fun to listen to, once we pulled them out into the middle of the room.

Mike V's "Totally Tubulars" - You would have no idea from looking at them, or reading the 'reviews' in the old sales flyer, but those things ROCKED. They were some serious hardcore party speakers. After the audition pieces, us "young guys" started getting excited and wanted to hear Tool and hard rock. And boy, did we have them cranked at one point! Paul K concluded that listening session by joking, "None of you are coming over to my house."

Thanks Shawn for putting on the event. I had a really great time, and got a lot of good inspiration (walked away with a couple of goodies, too).

To all that were there who asked about Kick the Cat: they are a fusion group from Chicago. I went to college with two of the guys in the group (yes, my bachelor's is in music, for what it's worth). They are AMAZING to see live, and their recordings are excellent as well. If you can make the stop through Chicago, they tend to play about once a month at some venue downtown.

More info here (yes you can buy the CDs using paypal; my two favorites being "Weirdo" and "Scramble"):
<A HREF="http://www.kickthecatmusic.com/">http://www.kickthecatmusic.com/</A>

Also, yes, my REAL name is Paul Carmody. I go by Undefinition because it's just my email address, and there are too many Pauls here. I consider myself a very honest and kind-hearted person, and I'm not the type to hide behind a pseudonym. Everyone's free to call me Paul as much or as little as you want.

[highvoltage]

Hi all,

Someone suggested I use "High Voltage" as my moniker because you might remember me from my Manley Labs "Tubes Rule!" T-shirt. Yep, I'm one of those flea-power types!

I too am a COMPLETE newb when it comes to speaker building and I came to DIY Indiana with curiousity and an open mind. Imagine my surprise when I recognized Dan as a Bloomington guy immediately upon walking in the door. (Dan, as I drove home I remembered we had played a bit of golf in a Chamber outing many moons ago).

I'd like to thank Shawn for officially welcoming me as well as those of you I was able to meet. I especially enjoyed talking shop at lunch (thanks guys).

I was very impressed with everyone's skillfull inventiveness and excellent ears. I really enjoyed all the speakers, although the room (IMHO) seemed to have some issues that bloated bass a bit. I got there just in time to hear the clamped full-rangers (very nice) but had to leave after the horns, so it seems I missed a few good ones.

I too really liked Dan's omni and I really liked the little Rubik's cubes too. I thought the most moving cut of the day was the acapella piece--great stuff but I can't remember what it was--enlighten me please, I'd like to buy it.

Overall, while I thought there were strengths and weaknesses in all of the speakers, I generally prefered the smoothness of Tulines and Dan's uh, well, his second set of speakers best.

Larry Moore is an aquaintance of mine and builds some incredible tube gear. He is a big DIY proponent too. While I am not necessarily in love with the Fostex "house sound", I do have an affinity for single driver speakers, so I really enjoyed listening to the horns too. I thought they'd probably benefit greatly from some additional set-up tweaking.

I am really new to DIY and I have to finish building an amp first, but after that I think maybe you fella's need a single driver/low watt tube guy in yer group to balance things a little.

Oh man, I don't need a new audio hobby, my wife is gonna kill me!!!!!

Thanks again,
Gary Beard

> It was no short drive down from Chicago, but
> I really enjoyed myself. Being a relative
> newbie, I had nothing really worth showing
> off. I just wanted some inspiration, and to
> share in some good old fashioned speaker
> geekiness.

> The big surprises:
> dlneubec's (prototype) omnidirectional
> speaker - it was phenomenal, and it was the
> one thing I noticed everyone kept mumbling
> about under their breath for the rest of the
> day . Also, if only the guy gave woodworking
> classes...

> the quickrete tubes - it was a real
> head-scratcher, and to the average person,
> you would have no way of knowing they were
> speakers. As he said, 20 year-old
> technology. But they were really pretty fun
> to listen to, once we pulled them out into
> the middle of the room.

> Mike V's "Totally Tubulars" - You
> would have no idea from looking at them, or
> reading the 'reviews' in the old sales
> flyer, but those things ROCKED. They were
> some serious hardcore party speakers. After
> the audition pieces, us "young
> guys" started getting excited and
> wanted to hear Tool and hard rock. And boy,
> did we have them cranked at one point! Paul
> K concluded that listening session by
> joking, "None of you are coming over to
> my house."

> Thanks Shawn for putting on the event. I had
> a really great time, and got a lot of good
> inspiration (walked away with a couple of
> goodies, too).

> To all that were there who asked about Kick
> the Cat: they are a fusion group from
> Chicago. I went to college with two of the
> guys in the group (yes, my bachelor's is in
> music, for what it's worth). They are
> AMAZING to see live, and their recordings
> are excellent as well. If you can make the
> stop through Chicago, they tend to play
> about once a month at some venue downtown.

> More info here (yes you can buy the CDs
> using paypal; my two favorites being
> "Weirdo" and
> "Scramble"):
> <A HREF="http://www.kickthecatmusic.com/">http://www.kickthecatmusic.com/</A> Also, yes,
> my REAL name is Paul Carmody. I go by
> Undefinition because it's just my email
> address, and there are too many Pauls here.
> I consider myself a very honest and
> kind-hearted person, and I'm not the type to
> hide behind a pseudonym. Everyone's free to
> call me Paul as much or as little as you
> want.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

> I thought the most moving cut of the day was
> the acapella piece--great stuff but I can't
> remember what it was--enlighten me please,
> I'd like to buy it.

The acapella piece was played on the Schumakubins. It's a Billy Joel tune called "And So It Goes" by King's Singers.

[dylanmatlow]

Sounds like it was a great time, shame the sandman wasn't on my side . I have everything wrapped up here though for the 5.25 so at least there is something to show for it .

See ya at the next DIY I hope though!

> I woke up at 7:15 AM, and couldn't sleep any
> more. I've been up since, and it was a long
> and enjoyable day with about a dozen speaks
> in attendance, and an official count of 20
> people.

> We setup in the 1.5 hrs before 10, allowing
> to pick a quartet of routine tracks for the
> day:

> Norah Jones- "Broken"
> Resphigi- Queen of Sheba suite
> Kick the Kat- (Jazz ensemble friends of
> Undefinition)- ?
> Presenter's choice

> Shawn's YAM-V's (RS125/AC)sounded nice and
> sweet with only an 'echo' of my concern
> possibly from one recording. He lucked out
> with some poly-caps, and some interconnects.

> dlneubec- He brought a pair of
> dipoles(mini-Nao), a pair of omni's, and a
> single 'wave-omni'. I felt the dipoles had a
> reflection off the front wall causing
> trouble. Otherwise good. The omni-pair
> sounded nice, but the single wave-monster
> did an impressive job! We listened to it in
> mono, and it even avoided the usual
> room-boom that has plagued the
> Hampton-conference-rooms in the past. Darren
> pointed out that the orientation of the dual
> RS225 was probably the reason for this. dl's
> woodworking is very nice indeed! He received
> a sheet of damping rubber-flooring that I
> threw in the pot, and a set of new Jantzen
> steel-core coils.

> Pete brought his "clampified"
> Shumakubins, due to the unfinished assembly
> process. They were dynamic, clear, but IMO,
> lacked a midrange 'presence'. It's not that
> the midrange was absent, but
> constrained/hindered. They are BIG too! As
> he said, he received the Aura Ti tweeters,
> donated by dl'.

> PaulK found himself tapping his
> 'starchy-classical' foot to some
> "Disturbed" later this evening.
> =-) He brought his TuLines, and they sounded
> nice. Solid cabinetry. We discussed 'the'
> short-coming as a CTC distance dilemma, but
> otherwise they were brilliant. This was the
> first time I heard the Fountek tweeters, and
> I really don't notice much of a difference
> in character between the AC and these. Paul
> got a router-buddy! Thanks for letting us
> use your equipment!

> LeoF brought a set of old Ebay-bought
> Ohm-Walsh speakers in Quikrete 2.6ft^3
> tubes. VERY IMPRESSIVE! I was NOT expecting
> the sound and depth from those. Again- these
> were omni's for those unfamiliar with the
> driver's orientation.

> A commercial dude, Larry Parker, brought a
> PC USB-DAC, a heavy 10W ClassA SE 0-feedback
> tube amp, and a set of 'different'
> horn-loaded FosteX 6.5" full-range
> drivers. He helped them with a Yammie sub,
> and Eminence supertweeter. I liked the DAC,
> nuff $ed.

> Robert walked out with some 15" tubes
> as a door prize that I donated. We
> momentarily used some undisclosed(?)
> PE-future products in the setup of a classic
> or IB proto18" subwoofer. It just set
> face-first on the tubes. We put the
> rubber-pad on the floor, and used MikeV as a
> weight-clamp to keep the 18 in place atop
> the tubes whilst pumping some 'Zombie. That
> gave us the (ab)normal 'dlsbobby' type grins
> for the day, and MikeV "picked up some
> good vibrations".

> I believe that is it 'cept for me. I brought
> the Audinum TM's, the Sir Audinum MTM's, the
> Rubyks, and the Scandivifias; played in that
> order. Criticisms/raves were as follows: The
> Sir's were "forward" or
> "awesome" as stated by a few
> attendees. The Audinums were
> "balanced", and bose-beating
> "fantastic imagers". The Rubyks
> faired better than I gave them credit, and
> the paint scheme was loved by all I talked
> to. Most liked their sound. The Scandivifias
> were the second to last played in the day,
> and it sounds like the attendees felt them
> worth the wait. I think Pete was in love.
> (Awww...) Vocal layers in a 4/5 piece
> harmony was clear and precise, and bass was
> taught and deep. They looked really nice
> atop dl's dipole-stands. I may make some
> similar. No- I didn't pay full-price for the
> 8530s.

> Lunch for most was at Ruby-Tuesday's, and it
> was some good sustenance indeed! (No
> Burritos were harmed in the making of the
> end of today's events.)

> Thanks once again to El Burrito
> "Marmot" Bandito for putting on
> this event, and inviting us to descend upon
> the tiny town of Richmond and wreak some
> aural havoc.
> Later,
> Wolf

[Paul K.]

Thanks for the compliments on my TuLines, Pete. As it was, I tuned them a little lower than I might have otherwise, ending up with an F3 of ~34 Hz and increasing the output at 20-30 Hz by about 3 dB, but "giving up" about 1 dB in the 40-60 Hz region. There's plenty enough bass in my room and for my musical preferences. While I've already stated I thought Dan's Mentors were the best in show, I would award your speakers with best fullrange for the price.
Paul K.

> The room, and especially where you sat in
> the room, had a real effect on what you
> heard. That became apparent when they were
> playing with the 18" Dayton. As I
> walked from the back to the front of the
> room, bass changed quite a bit, and it was
> mostly affecting the very low bass. All the
> smaller speakers with no low end sounded
> nicely balanced overall, but when the real
> full range systems came up, bass was an
> issue. The room was closed. If we were able
> to open it up as in windows and doors, we
> could have greatly improved the bottom
> couple of octaves.

> For example, when Wolf ran his small guys
> with the tiny woofers, no issue. When he
> brought up the ScandVifas, they had just
> enough low end to begin to sound a little
> heavy, but only if there was content down
> there. I brought along a vocal only track
> with layered harmonies as my "designers
> choice" and the clarity of the voices
> on the ScandVifas was just excellent. Not a
> hint of that heaviness. And the same was
> true of the MTMWW. As long as there was no
> real content down real low, I found the
> overall presentation to be very similar in
> the placement of the soprano, tenor, alto,
> baritone and bass in both volume and tone.
> But I still prefer the overall presentation
> of that piece on the MTMWW. There's just a
> different sound I think that's due to the
> physical distribution of drivers. It just
> makes a "bigger" soundstage. There
> was a certain something to the detail in the
> mids the scans were able to pull out though.

> But if I need a pair of speakers for a large
> room to reproduce full orchestra and be able
> to deliver on the low end some realistic big
> drum action, I'll take the MTMWW over the
> two-way monitor.

> The nicest overall sound to me yesterday was
> dl's omni MTMW with active low end. I could
> tell a little bit of strain coming through
> on some passages, but that was totally due
> to the fact that the in-line filter was
> incompatible with the amp, so instead of
> being crossed around 100Hz, the RS180s were
> being pushed full range. On the larger
> peaks, I heard some compression and clipping
> during a couple of passages. But if the amp
> wasn't turned up as loud and the RS180s
> stayed linear, the sound was full, detailed.
> And being able to dial-in the low amp
> balance to suit was a nice advantage. I
> don't care what anyone says, a good,
> dedicated sub for the left and right is
> really the way to go. Oh, and they looked
> really great. The man is a cabinet making
> genius.

> The mono-omni we heard employed the RS52 and
> ND20 firing upward into flared cones to
> deflect the sound into the room. Again, they
> had an overall balance problem I think
> partly due to the room. They stood on a pair
> of RS225 crossed to the RS52 at around
> 550Hz. Again, on material with low bass, the
> overall sound seemed a bit heavy and the
> RS52 seemed to be straining a bit during the
> louder passages, not heard at all on the
> TuLines where it's crossed around 750Hz. I'm
> thinking if DL replaces the RS52 with a nice
> 4" or 5" mid, he could cross lower
> and better integrate to the dual RS225s. At
> least the RS125 can handle the 500Hz XO
> point much better.

> Speaking of RS125s, Shawn's version with the
> ribbon tweet sounded pretty darn good. That
> little woofer is really amazing, but I still
> have that question, lingering since Dan
> Akroyd first asked, "Is shimmer a
> desert topping or a floor cleaner?" I
> may give that little woofer a shot, paired
> with my remaining set of 27TBFCs crossed
> around 1800Hz, or maybe my old Dynaudio D21
> at 2500Hz.

> I too was really surprised by the Walsh
> driver. One was dented, stuck on top of some
> sonotubes. Uglier speakers you could not
> think up . . . well maybe not. But when they
> powered up, I was shocked. These things had
> to be at least 20 years old and consisted of
> a roughly 6" highish Q woofer and
> tweeter behind a steel mesh cage. What
> emerged was quite nice sound, with fairly
> full range.

> The TuLines were great. Excellent cabinet
> work and finish. And while generally not a
> fan of ribbons for reasons I've stated many
> times, this was handled correctly. The RS52
> was crossed high enough to keep the ribbon
> in its most linear frequency range,
> minimizing the "shimmer,"
> otherwise known as HD products. I guess my
> only problem with the RS180 as a woofer in a
> 3-way is that it just doesn't play as deep
> as I'd like to go, even with the MLTL. I
> wonder what a deeper tuning would do,
> slightly longer port????

> What can I say about the Fostex
> "horns" we heard? Well,
> considering 10W was driving them, they did
> fill the room nicely, but these things
> focused sound like a pair of cannons. They
> crossed around 200Hz to some Yamaha active
> subs. Overall, the sound was pretty
> balanced, nothing obnoxious, but I did hear
> either the amp clipping or the fostex on
> some of the more intense passages. Since my
> wife was along, she gave me her SAF on them
> as a resounding "you've got to be
> kidding" based on their industrial
> look.

> And the valve amp. What can I say. A thing
> of beauty. Nicely crafted and you could tell
> the creator was extremely proud of his 85
> pound beast. But at $6500, you better be
> buying it because of its statement as art,
> not because its heft as an amp. It performed
> well enough with the fostex, so the Tulines
> were then connected since they're a more
> normal 88dB system, and the glass amp gave
> all she had to give. Very clean sound. He
> asked if anyone else wanted to try, so what
> the heck? The MTMWW is an easier load for
> the amp than the TuLines, but they're even
> less sensitive. Still, I was surprised by
> the performance. Where it was quite apparent
> was in the bass region. There just wasn't
> the nice, tight control of bass as there was
> with the SS 150W amp. Then again, what may
> have sounded like lack of control was
> dynamic range limitations.

> I'd like to hear that amp again, but next
> time on a high impedance line array . . .

[dlneubec]

I finally got a chance to get online and post my thoughts. I have been doingh DIY speakers for about a year and a half and this was my first DIY meet. What a great time! What a great bunch of guys! You will definitely be seeing more of me at future get togethers.

I want to thank Shawn for all the hard work setting this up and making it work out so well. The venue was great, I thought. The room was very nice, but almost all the speakers seemed to suffer from some bloom in the upper bass-mid bass areas, mybe having to do with floor and ceiling bounce. The speakers were a good 8' from the side walls and at least that much from the front wall, so it seems unlikely that they were contributors.

I want to thank Paul K. for bringing his very nice preamp, amp and cd player and for acting as the DJ, you might say. I'd love to have equipment like that!

Thanks to the PE guys for coming over and bringing some goodies for us. The protypes looked VERY interesting!

> Shawn's YAM-V's (RS125/AC)sounded nice and
> sweet with only an 'echo' of my concern
> possibly from one recording. He lucked out
> with some poly-caps, and some interconnects.

We listened to Shawns for a good hour or more while waiting for folks to arrive for the 10:00 start. I liked them a lot. They had really nice imaging and were very easy to listen to, without fatigue.

> dlneubec- He brought a pair of
> dipoles(mini-Nao), a pair of omni's, and a
> single 'wave-omni'. I felt the dipoles had a
> reflection off the front wall causing
> trouble. Otherwise good. The omni-pair
> sounded nice, but the single wave-monster
> did an impressive job! We listened to it in
> mono, and it even avoided the usual
> room-boom that has plagued the
> Hampton-conference-rooms in the past. Darren
> pointed out that the orientation of the dual
> RS225 was probably the reason for this. dl's
> woodworking is very nice indeed! He received
> a sheet of damping rubber-flooring that I
> threw in the pot, and a set of new Jantzen
> steel-core coils.

Hey Wolf, I thought that Darren was talking about the big omni pair (Mentors) and the RS180s that fire at each other when he was making those comments, not the single waveuguide omni.

Thanks again for the rubber flooring. I came up with another possible use. Damping material to sit under your equipment in a rack (I'm throwing a temporary one together at the moment)

> Pete brought his "clampified"
> Shumakubins, due to the unfinished assembly
> process. They were dynamic, clear, but IMO,
> lacked a midrange 'presence'. It's not that
> the midrange was absent, but
> constrained/hindered. They are BIG too! As
> he said, he received the Aura Ti tweeters,
> donated by dl'.

I enjoyed Pete's speakers a lot. They really kicked out a lot of bass and the vocal group sounded wonderful ont them. They were clearly the value leader in my book. I thought I heard some panel resonance at one point in one of the selections. Hey Pete, I think you could make them even better by adding some shelf braces to them, even though they are 1" mdf. I have shelf braces every 4"-5" to make sure the cabinets are as dead as possible.

> PaulK found himself tapping his
> 'starchy-classical' foot to some
> "Disturbed" later this evening.
> =-) He brought his TuLines, and they sounded
> nice. Solid cabinetry. We discussed 'the'
> short-coming as a CTC distance dilemma, but
> otherwise they were brilliant. This was the
> first time I heard the Fountek tweeters, and
> I really don't notice much of a difference
> in character between the AC and these. Paul
> got a router-buddy! Thanks for letting us
> use your equipment!

I thought Pauls TuLines were one of the very best. Very balanced and smooth souding. The RS52 crossed at 750 was much less strained than my single wave-guide omni crossed at 550. The TuLines also had some of the cleanest sounding bass, with seemingly less room effects compared to most of the others. On top of that, they looked great!

I wanted to get the rs52 in my wave-guide omni crossed at 600-650, instead of 550, but have been having measurement/simulation/measurement/phase matching problems that led me to this temporary low crossover point. I hope to continue working on it and have it ready with a pair for the next event I go to.

I was very happy with the way the Mentor omni's were received. Thanks to all for the nice comments. I just wish I could have used the inline filter on the low end of the RS180's. The integration with the subs is much better and the low and mid bass are much cleaner with them.

Also, I appreciate the nice comments about my woodworking, which I do take pride in and work hard at getting right. I'm also good at hiding my mistakes!

> LeoF brought a set of old Ebay-bought
> Ohm-Walsh speakers in Quikrete 2.6ft^3
> tubes. VERY IMPRESSIVE! I was NOT expecting
> the sound and depth from those. Again- these
> were omni's for those unfamiliar with the
> driver's orientation.

The Ohm Walsh speakers indeed had a big sound and were much better when they were moved out from the front wall. I love omni's! :-)

> A commercial dude, Larry Parker, brought a
> PC USB-DAC, a heavy 10W ClassA SE 0-feedback
> tube amp, and a set of 'different'
> horn-loaded FosteX 6.5" full-range
> drivers. He helped them with a Yammie sub,
> and Eminence supertweeter. I liked the DAC,
> nuff $ed.

> Robert walked out with some 15" tubes
> as a door prize that I donated. We
> momentarily used some undisclosed(?)
> PE-future products in the setup of a classic
> or IB proto18" subwoofer. It just set
> face-first on the tubes. We put the
> rubber-pad on the floor, and used MikeV as a
> weight-clamp to keep the 18 in place atop
> the tubes whilst pumping some 'Zombie. That
> gave us the (ab)normal 'dlsbobby' type grins
> for the day, and MikeV "picked up some
> good vibrations".

Mike's tubulars were real "party" speakers. They could put out a lot of sound (and did!).

> I believe that is it 'cept for me. I brought
> the Audinum TM's, the Sir Audinum MTM's, the
> Rubyks, and the Scandivifias; played in that
> order. Criticisms/raves were as follows: The
> Sir's were "forward" or
> "awesome" as stated by a few
> attendees. The Audinums were
> "balanced", and bose-beating
> "fantastic imagers". The Rubyks
> faired better than I gave them credit, and
> the paint scheme was loved by all I talked
> to. Most liked their sound. The Scandivifias
> were the second to last played in the day,
> and it sounds like the attendees felt them
> worth the wait. I think Pete was in love.
> (Awww...) Vocal layers in a 4/5 piece
> harmony was clear and precise, and bass was
> taught and deep. They looked really nice
> atop dl's dipole-stands. I may make some
> similar. No- I didn't pay full-price for the
> 8530s.

Wolf is definitely the king of small speakers. His TM's had a really big sound, great imaging, but of course lacked bass (1.2L enclosures,IIRC). But talk about Bose Killers! His MTM's with the same drivers did much to solve the bass dilemma of the MT version. The Rubik's also had a big clean sound. The Scandivifias sounded great. The crossover "cabinets" he built for them were really great! Of those Wolf brought,they were my favorite, assuming price is not consideration!

I hope I didn't forget to mention anyone elses efforts. It was a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to next year.

BTW, my name is Dan Neubecker. Feel free to call me by name.

[Paul Carmody]

The "Busy as a 1-armed wallpaper hanger" award DEFINITELY goes to Wolf. I was so fascinated by the broad range of designs and ideas he brought to the event. The scandivifias WERE nice, as one would expect with drivers like those. I think what really impressed everyone, Wolf, was your ability to make cheesy drivers sound like money (or at least fun). For the love of God, keep at it, my friend!

Also, we need to trade some music. YOu're into prog and rock... I may have some things you'll be interested in.

Back to reality!
Paul

> It was no short drive down from Chicago, but
> I really enjoyed myself. Being a relative
> newbie, I had nothing really worth showing
> off. I just wanted some inspiration, and to
> share in some good old fashioned speaker
> geekiness.

> The big surprises:
> dlneubec's (prototype) omnidirectional
> speaker - it was phenomenal, and it was the
> one thing I noticed everyone kept mumbling
> about under their breath for the rest of the
> day . Also, if only the guy gave woodworking
> classes...

> the quickrete tubes - it was a real
> head-scratcher, and to the average person,
> you would have no way of knowing they were
> speakers. As he said, 20 year-old
> technology. But they were really pretty fun
> to listen to, once we pulled them out into
> the middle of the room.

> Mike V's "Totally Tubulars" - You
> would have no idea from looking at them, or
> reading the 'reviews' in the old sales
> flyer, but those things ROCKED. They were
> some serious hardcore party speakers. After
> the audition pieces, us "young
> guys" started getting excited and
> wanted to hear Tool and hard rock. And boy,
> did we have them cranked at one point! Paul
> K concluded that listening session by
> joking, "None of you are coming over to
> my house."

> Thanks Shawn for putting on the event. I had
> a really great time, and got a lot of good
> inspiration (walked away with a couple of
> goodies, too).

> To all that were there who asked about Kick
> the Cat: they are a fusion group from
> Chicago. I went to college with two of the
> guys in the group (yes, my bachelor's is in
> music, for what it's worth). They are
> AMAZING to see live, and their recordings
> are excellent as well. If you can make the
> stop through Chicago, they tend to play
> about once a month at some venue downtown.

> More info here (yes you can buy the CDs
> using paypal; my two favorites being
> "Weirdo" and
> "Scramble"):
> <A HREF="http://www.kickthecatmusic.com/">http://www.kickthecatmusic.com/</A> Also, yes,
> my REAL name is Paul Carmody. I go by
> Undefinition because it's just my email
> address, and there are too many Pauls here.
> I consider myself a very honest and
> kind-hearted person, and I'm not the type to
> hide behind a pseudonym. Everyone's free to
> call me Paul as much or as little as you
> want.

[Wolf]

> The "Busy as a 1-armed wallpaper
> hanger" award DEFINITELY goes to Wolf.
> I was so fascinated by the broad range of
> designs and ideas he brought to the event.
> The scandivifias WERE nice, as one would
> expect with drivers like those. I think what
> really impressed everyone, Wolf, was your
> ability to make cheesy drivers sound like
> money (or at least fun). For the love of
> God, keep at it, my friend!

Will do! It's what I do best! Thanks a bunch.

> Also, we need to trade some music. YOu're
> into prog and rock... I may have some things
> you'll be interested in.

I listen to a lot of metal and industrial stuff, but I am broad in my tastes. Listen to those discs yet?
Later,
Ben

[Wolf]

> Hey Wolf, I thought that Darren was talking
> about the big omni pair (Mentors) and the
> RS180s that fire at each other when he was
> making those comments, not the single
> waveuguide omni.

I didn't realize there were 2 in those. Missed that somehow.

> Thanks again for the rubber flooring. I came
> up with another possible use. Damping
> material to sit under your equipment in a
> rack (I'm throwing a temporary one together
> at the moment)

Agreed! That is a great use that I have not implemented, but thought of as well. It should work for turntables and cd players I would imagine.

>> Also, I appreciate the nice comments about
> my woodworking, which I do take pride in and
> work hard at getting right. I'm also good at
> hiding my mistakes!

Credit is due there!!

> Wolf is definitely the king of small
> speakers. His TM's had a really big sound,
> great imaging, but of course lacked bass
> (1.2L enclosures,IIRC). But talk about Bose
> Killers! His MTM's with the same drivers did
> much to solve the bass dilemma of the MT
> version. The Rubik's also had a big clean
> sound. The Scandivifias sounded great. The
> crossover "cabinets" he built for
> them were really great! Of those Wolf
> brought,they were my favorite, assuming
> price is not consideration!

I agree with your statements. The Scandivifias are my favorite as well, not considering price factor. The Audinum series of speakers is an overachieving set, and were a very nice surprise for me post-completion. I'm glad the Rubyks faired sooo well. I actually prefer the Audinum MTM's, but the Rubyks aren't terrible. I appreciate your positive comments. =-)

> I hope I didn't forget to mention anyone
> elses efforts. It was a lot of fun. I'm
> looking forward to next year.

Me too. I hope you can attend in the future.
Later,
Ben