12 woofer plus horn tweeter two way design

[godzilla]

I want a big full sound at home. I've done the two way monitor thing and the full range driver in a back horn thing. For around $300 a pair for parts i was wondering if the parts below would give me a good sounding large two way that would be driven by el34 tube amp (30 watts per channel). Any advice?

Godzilla

<A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-334">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-334</A>

<A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=264-235&DID=7">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=264-235&DID=7</A>

<A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-306">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-306</A>

<A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-164">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-164</A>

[savantstrike]

Those parts are pretty vicious, but two things strike me at first.

One, is the mistake I made with the first build I wanted to do...

I wanted to build with a premade crossover. Its apparently much better to build a crossover of your own..

I'd love to help you with that as I love horns (I'm a Klipsch fan). If my XO skills aren't up to par, theres plent of other people here who can easily take me on the bench and on the podium err.. build off...

If you want my help though I'm all ears

Also, that driver is a pro sound driver.. Nothing wrong with a pro sound horn (I think), although it might be a bit harsh in a home environment, but that woofer has its drawbacks. It's definately capable of taking a beating (SEVERE beating), and the surround is the kind that doesnt wear out as quickly as rubber or foam, but you pay a price for that pro driver status. The FS is 50 hz. That isnt that low as far as bass goes. If you're not using this for a PA system.. which you aren't with a tube amp, you may be better off with a home audio grade 15 inch woofer. It'll give you better low frequency bass.. The problem is you'd probably want to build this as a 3 way at that point.. That's okay, theres XO geniuses on this board..

I'll post more tomm if I get time, if not then Tuesday. I'd say hold off on the pro sound woofer though in a home environment. There are better and even cleaner sounding ways to get that *big* sound... And I love big

> I want a big full sound at home. I've done
> the two way monitor thing and the full range
> driver in a back horn thing. For around $300
> a pair for parts i was wondering if the
> parts below would give me a good sounding
> large two way that would be driven by el34
> tube amp (30 watts per channel). Any advice?

> Godzilla

>
> <A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-334">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-334</A>
>
> <A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=264-235&DID=7">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...=264-235&DID=7</A>
>
> <A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-306">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=264-306</A>
>
> <A HREF="http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-164">http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=260-164</A>

[savantstrike]

BTW I'm assuming you want this setup to punch you in the gut with massive bass at the same time making your ears bleed with insane high end??

You basically want to re create the rock concert in your house right??

> Those parts are pretty vicious, but two
> things strike me at first.

> One, is the mistake I made with the first
> build I wanted to do...

> I wanted to build with a premade crossover.
> Its apparently much better to build a
> crossover of your own..

> I'd love to help you with that as I love
> horns (I'm a Klipsch fan). If my XO skills
> aren't up to par, theres plent of other
> people here who can easily take me on the
> bench and on the podium err.. build off...

> If you want my help though I'm all ears

> Also, that driver is a pro sound driver..
> Nothing wrong with a pro sound horn (I
> think), although it might be a bit harsh in
> a home environment, but that woofer has its
> drawbacks. It's definately capable of taking
> a beating (SEVERE beating), and the surround
> is the kind that doesnt wear out as quickly
> as rubber or foam, but you pay a price for
> that pro driver status. The FS is 50 hz.
> That isnt that low as far as bass goes. If
> you're not using this for a PA system..
> which you aren't with a tube amp, you may be
> better off with a home audio grade 15 inch
> woofer. It'll give you better low frequency
> bass.. The problem is you'd probably want to
> build this as a 3 way at that point.. That's
> okay, theres XO geniuses on this board..

> I'll post more tomm if I get time, if not
> then Tuesday. I'd say hold off on the pro
> sound woofer though in a home environment.
> There are better and even cleaner sounding
> ways to get that *big* sound... And I love
> big

[savantstrike]

Okay yeah, looking at that Selenium.. its really meant for pro sound... It drops off pretty sharply after about 12Khz.

You def want some diff drivers than this setup.

> BTW I'm assuming you want this setup to
> punch you in the gut with massive bass at
> the same time making your ears bleed with
> insane high end??

> You basically want to re create the rock
> concert in your house right??

[billfitzmaurice]

> Any advice?
Go with a tested and tried design. Have you modeled the woofer? If you had I'm sure that you wouldn't be considering it, and if you haven't then you shouldn't be considering designing your own cab.

[savantstrike]

Ouch.. a little abrasive..

Dont worry, my first build was totally all wrong too, I love PE for that 45 day back guarantee though.. I'm shipping the offending speakers back before having opened them, and I ordered a better set to take their place (from PE of course). That 45 guarantee is a completely new reason why I'll keep coming back to PE (I always go to them for terminals, bananas, gasket tape, misc stuff). That and this awesome forum.

You could go with a proven design, or you could build one too. Its infectiously fun, there is a bit of risk involved, but the people on here are REALLY smart. If you want I could help you with stage 1, and you could check it with someone else for stages 2 and maybe 3.

But yes, those selinium drivers... they'll be way too harsh for anything home use, especially since you have a tube amp, for which I'm assuming you don't plan on beating these with ultra high power levels, but rather hearing them sound awesome at tolerable levels.

Leave the pro audio sound at the concert where it belongs, we'll help you build something that can match that for WOW factor, but will sound really really clean too. You might even be able to put some adjustable XO points inside the design with switches, so if you want that "Pro" sound, there will be more ephasis up to about 13Khz, and some in the mid area. Like painful emphasis even. Whatever you want.

> Go with a tested and tried design. Have you
> modeled the woofer? If you had I'm sure that
> you wouldn't be considering it, and if you
> haven't then you shouldn't be considering
> designing your own cab.

[godzilla]

> Ouch.. a little abrasive..

I modeled a box in WinISD for this driver. Approx 2.5 cubic feet tuned to 42hz.

What does it mean exactly when someone calls Pro drivers 'rough for home use'???

What 12" drivers would work better for in a home listening environment for about the same 50 bucks?

Many thanks,
Godzilla

[Paul O]

With only 30w avaialble, I don't think you'll tax either driver, so if the system sounds harsh it's not the drivers fault. The D210ti is very nice for the $$, but 3.5kz is way too high for this application, mainly for the 12" though. You want to keep the crossover below the 2khz breakup, so you could safely run a 1.5khz crossover. Some other 12's may offer better low frequency response, the Delta 12LF will provide surprising bass in a 2-3cu ft ported enclosure.

[billfitzmaurice]

> I modeled a box in WinISD for this driver.
> Approx 2.5 cubic feet tuned to 42hz.

In that box I get a 5dB hump at 90Hz, f3 at 53 Hz, and most important, a displacement limited maximum SPL of only 102dB at 65 Hz. Response looks pretty good with 10 cu ft and 35 Hz tuning, but the 1.3mm xmax just doesn't make it.

> What 12" drivers would work better for
> in a home listening environment for about
> the same 50 bucks?

Crossing directly to a tweeter, none. The off-axis response of a twelve pretty much demands crossing over no higher than 1.2kHz for a good result. A tweeter capable of going that low isn't going to come cheap. Far better to go with a pair of eights with adequate xmax in an MTM.

[savantstrike]

Or make it a 3 way and you can go absolutely crazy if you feel like it..

What I mean by abrasive was pro drivers arent usually as flat response wise as a nice home driver IMO.

If you look at that horn tweeter, you'll see its REALLY overpowering up until about 13Khz, after which it goes limp. Thats going to sound really screechy, but its not going to give you all of the subtle details in a piece of music.

I'm trying to model some XOvers for you, but I'm having a hard time of it.. Mainly because I'm a n00b.

I'm going to be away from comp for a few days (hopefully), but when I get back if you're still stuck, drop me a line, I'll see if I can't help you along...

Hopefully is a good word, because my best friend is coming over tomm and we're going to chill for a late memorial day weekend build... Oh yeah!

> In that box I get a 5dB hump at 90Hz, f3 at
> 53 Hz, and most important, a displacement
> limited maximum SPL of only 102dB at 65 Hz.
> Response looks pretty good with 10 cu ft and
> 35 Hz tuning, but the 1.3mm xmax just
> doesn't make it.

> Crossing directly to a tweeter, none. The
> off-axis response of a twelve pretty much
> demands crossing over no higher than 1.2kHz
> for a good result. A tweeter capable of
> going that low isn't going to come cheap.
> Far better to go with a pair of eights with
> adequate xmax in an MTM.

[Paul O]

> If you look at that horn tweeter, you'll see
> its REALLY overpowering up until about
> 13Khz, after which it goes limp. Thats going
> to sound really screechy, but its not going
> to give you all of the subtle details in a
> piece of music.

It's all relative. It's only +-2db from 2khz to 15khz, that covers most of a typical adults hearing range. I have heard plenty of screechy horns, 30w will not make this one distort.