Xo for DC160S-4 & TB 25-1166SJ

[Froste]

Has anyone done any XO circuits for a DC160S-4 (6.5" dayton Classic 4ohm) and a TB 25-1166SJ (TB 2 5/8" plat 1" dome tweeter 4ohm) or any work with either?

I'm trying to get these 2 to work in a 12x8x8 box, vented. But can't get the woofer to sound quite right.

Any information would help alot. Thanks

[Wolf]

Has anyone done any XO circuits for a DC160S-4 (6.5" dayton Classic 4ohm) and a TB 25-1166SJ (TB 2 5/8" dome tweeter 4ohm) or any work with either?

I'm trying to get these 2 to work in a 12x8x8 box, vented. But can't get the woofer to sound quite right.

Any information would help alot. Thanks

I know you mean the frame diameter for the 1166, as it's only a 1" dome. Other than that, I know of no such dessgn. However, I am going to give you my opinion that it *might* not be a good combo. The 1166 is best above 2.5kHz, and the DC160 needs a more robust tweeter to meet it much lower. It has a rolled off midrange that isn't that great, and the usual DC28F can play to 1.7kHz and not have issues, making it a much better match. My advice is to make it a 3-way if you're set on that woofer and tweeter.
Later,
Wolf

[Froste]

Thats great, I thought it might be something like that. Just my luck I've got the baffle cut for a 2 5/8" (outside size of tweeter) recess. And got most of the XO built for a 2.5k cross. So I guess I rethink. Know of any 2 5/8" face plate tweeters that might work?

Thanks Wolf.

[Chris Roemer]

Thats great, I thought it might be something like that. Just my luck I've got the baffle cut for a 2 5/8" (outside size of tweeter) recess. And got most of the XO built for a 2.5k cross. So I guess I rethink. Know of any 2 5/8" face plate tweeters that might work?

Thanks Wolf.

What do you have for an XO so far? That 160 should be able to be pounded into submission.

[Froste]

Here is what I've got so far.

Tweeter circuit +-----10.8uf--!----1ohm--+T
1mh
!------------T-
Woofer circuit +------.5mh--!----!----W+
! !
4uf 57uf
! !
! 4ohm
! !
- -----------------------W-
Box 12x8x8 of 1" mdf. Running on a 35w/c amp.

Right now tweeter sounds good, woofer better after Zobel added, but still kind of lifeless, Not much mid/mid bass range, not sure how to describe.

Been giving some thought to getting a DC150-4, I have not cut the recess for the woofer yet, so I think a DC150 might fit in a 5.5" hole.

But if I could get this DC160S to work, be much better.

Thanks.

[johnastockman]

Here is what I've got so far.

Tweeter circuit +-----10.8uf--!----1ohm--+T
1mh
!------------T-
Woofer circuit +------.5mh--!----!----W+
4uf 57uf
! !
! 4ohm
! !
- -----------------------W-
Box 12x8x8 of 1" mdf. Running on a 35w/c amp.

Right now tweeter sounds good, woofer better after Zobel added, but still kind of lifeless, Not much mid/mid bass range, not sure how to describe.

Been giving some thought to getting a DC150-4, I have not cut the recess for the woofer yet, so I think a DC150 might fit in a 5.5" hole.

But if I could get this DC160S to work, be much better.

Thanks.

Where's the 1mH coil in the tweeter circuit? After the 10.8uF cap, shunted to ground, then the resistor to the + of the tweeter? I'm far from a XO expert, but if that's the diagram, maybe a larger coil for the woofer and smaller for the tweeter? I'll let Chris answer, though. His response will definitely be the best answer for your alignment. Do you mean the DC130, the 5.25" woofer? If so, the mounting hole dimensions are 4 3/4" for the round frame and 5 11/16" overall frame diameter. Probably not much left using a 5 1/2" hole.

John A.

[Froste]

Sorry, my error, its the RS150 I'm looking at. And yes John the circuit is what I've got, these are 4ohm drivers, and this is what worked, got me the cross point I wanted. However, the woofer just sounds like someone sucked the life out of it. Maybe just the way this driver is, might need to be in a 3-way to "do its thing" (as Wolf said).

But, I'll keep hacking at this for a bit, before I give up.

Just one last thought, I have some NEO3's, wonder if they might work with these woofers?

[Froste]

Sorry again, Just noticed, the circuit map did not show up as I typed it, so here it is again, in JPG form.

[johnastockman]

Sorry, my error, its the RS150 I'm looking at. And yes John the circuit is what I've got, these are 4ohm drivers, and this is what worked, got me the cross point I wanted. However, the woofer just sounds like someone sucked the life out of it. Maybe just the way this driver is, might need to be in a 3-way to "do its thing" (as Wolf said).

But, I'll keep hacking at this for a bit, before I give up.

Just one last thought, I have some NEO3's, wonder if they might work with these woofers?

Well, the RS is a much better driver, anyway! But it does have break-up issues in that XO area that need to be dealt with. You could try using some different value coils in the woofer circuit and see what it sounds like. One of the mistakes I made early on was when using textbook/algebra formulas, the coil values were usually too small. Sometimes an underlap of the cross point worked, but I'm not sure what's going on with the woofer sounding lifeless. I'm sure Chris can help. He does a great job using the measurement files. It'll get you much closer. I've used that DC160 woofer in a few projects and haven't run across that "lifeless" sound. Of course, someone with more skills than I designed the XO, so if you still want to use that driver, maybe take a look at the BR-1 XO, or Dennis Murphy's XO and see what was done there. Here's Dennis' rendition:

http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=pe_br1.html

I've put together a bunch of the BR-1's and since Dennis came out with his XO, that's all I've used since. Compared to the stock BR's, there's a noticeable improvement in the midrange and lower treble, which can be attributed mostly to the different woofer topology. Keep us posted!

John A.

[johnastockman]

Sorry again, Just noticed, the circuit map did not show up as I typed it, so here it is again, in JPG form.

Ok, I see...do you have some XO parts to play around with? I'd still try a different (larger) coil on the woofer and maybe a smaller cap in the zobel. I rarely see that large of a coil in the parallel leg of a tweeter curcuit, but since you have some problems with the woofer, maybe try some adjustments there. It's ok to underlap the cross points sometimes if you have a shallower slope. I could be talkin' out me a**, so I'll defer to Chris when he has a chance to answer. Again, he's really good with this stuff.

John A.

[Wolf]

Sorry again, Just noticed, the circuit map did not show up as I typed it, so here it is again, in JPG form.

Alright- now I see what is going on.

Do you have *piercing* highs? Try placing a resistor in series before the tweeters xover, and remove the 1 ohm. About 2-3 ohms for trial. I also think the Tweeter cap is too big as 10.8 could be trouble. I'd shoot for a 6.8uF, and put a 10uF after the shunt where the 1 ohm was, making it third order. Try a 0.25mH in the shunt. You can up the caps to 8.2 and 12 if you want to try that.

I would maybe bump the coil for the DC160 like John said, as it could be too much or too little. I would try a 0.75 mH, and bypass it with a .22uF cap to steepen it's rolloff. Place a 10-12uF cap in the shunt for the woofer.

This is all speculation, not simulation, but it'll be closer than what you have.
Later,
Wolf

[Chris Roemer]

[QUOTE=Wolf;1517884]Alright- now I see what is going on.

Do you have *piercing* highs? Try placing a resistor in series before the tweeters xover, and remove the 1 ohm.


As Wolf suggests, your tweeter is running roughly 6dB too hot, and you're crossing around 1.6 kHz.

I've modeled this using PE's CLIO data.
HP: 10uF cap (your 10.8 will be OK)
0.40mH shunt coil (I'd just use the .50 from you LP section)
L-Pad to cut tweeter down: 3 ohm series and 3 ohm parallel resistors

LP: Just a 2.0mH coil and a 16uF shunt cap. I'd leave the Zobel off (it DID do a good job of flattening out the woofer's inductive rise though).

I'm not sure whch way to hook up the tweeter, as my phase data seems suspect, but the sim indicates reverse polarity. Listen to it both ways.

This crosses near 2k, and is roughly 83dB with about 4dB baffle step.

Your boxes seem pretty small to be used vented with the 6" OR 5" "Classics". 3/8 to 1/2 cf would be more appropriate and easier to tune.

[jbruner]

As Wolf suggests, your tweeter is running roughly 6dB too hot, and you're crossing around 1.6 kHz.

I've modeled this using PE's CLIO data.
HP: 10uF cap (your 10.8 will be OK)
0.40mH shunt coil (I'd just use the .50 from you LP section)
L-Pad to cut tweeter down: 3 ohm series and 3 ohm parallel resistors

LP: Just a 2.0mH coil and a 16uF shunt cap. I'd leave the Zobel off (it DID do a good job of flattening out the woofer's inductive rise though).

I'm not sure whch way to hook up the tweeter, as my phase data seems suspect, but the sim indicates reverse polarity. Listen to it both ways.

This crosses near 2k, and is roughly 83dB with about 4dB baffle step.

Your boxes seem pretty small to be used vented with the 6" OR 5" "Classics". 3/8 to 1/2 cf would be more appropriate and easier to tune.

Chris, did you use the 4-ohm woofer for this sim?

[Wolf]

Chris, did you use the 4-ohm woofer for this sim?

I wondered the same thing! 2.0mH seems pretty high for the 4 ohm impedance. That's why I said .75mH.
Later,
Wolf

[Chris Roemer]

Chris, did you use the 4-ohm woofer for this sim?

Yup, and (for 4 ohms nominal) the z profile looks really nice, only dips down to 3.8 slightly near woofer's Zmin.

[Froste]

First off, THANKS very much, Wolf, John, Chris.

#1. Wolf's change for the Tweeter, made a world of difference, I tried different Rs in circuit in difference places (up front, in back), and puting a 2.7ohm in place of the 1ohm, really made the tweeters shine.

#2. From John I looked at the BR-1 XOs and from that I started looking at the Zobel circuit, mine looked like the Cap might be too high. I tested the 2 NCP caps I was using to make the 59uf (12&47), and together they measured 68-70uf and would not fix. So, test each cap and the 47s were messedup. 12s just measured high. So from there I took out the 47s and tried different other caps and when I added a 10uf poly to the 12uf, BANG - what a big difference. Now I think my whole problem was these woofers need a zobel and it needs to be around 25-27uf range using a good cap.

#3, Chris I did not get your circuit until after I tried the above, But I have tried out all of your ideas, but 1, I need another 2mh ind to complete testing. I'm still testing your overall design.

Anywho, after testing with speakers in boxes, (no padding or sealed). These things I thought would be in the trash now sound great, I mean realy good! I still want to completely test out Chris's design and need to work on the Vent vs Sealed and/or size/number placement of ports.
But overall I'm very very happy. These are for my wife's CD unit in the Kitchen area and she will love them.

Here is the XO circuit I'm running right now that sound very good.


And once again Thank all of you so very much for your help.

(ps: Wolf I'm already work on another very small speaker design for more surrounds)

[Froste]

I've got these BR-1 look-a-likes (or a 4ohm smaller version) done.

1st a heartfelt thanks to Wolf, Chris & John.

After too much work for what was to be a simple project, they are done and sound very good, very clear and great bass. They are hooked up to a cheap CD unit in our kitchen which is a large room (33'x13') and open to the other living areas of our home and they can fill the whole room with deep rich sound. I would just have got PEs BR-1s, but I need 4ohm load and somewhat smaller box. But here they are:



closeup of one:


Here is XO layout - (sorry Chris the 2mh just left too big a gap)


Box size is 7.5"w x 12"h x 8"d, with 2 1" x 1" flared ports in back.

Thanks again Wolf, Chris & John.

[Wolf]

I've got these BR-1 look-a-likes (or a 4ohm smaller version) done.

1st a heartfelt thanks to Wolf, Chris & John.

After too much work for what was to be a simple project, they are done and sound very good, very clear and great bass. They are hooked up to a cheap CD unit in our kitchen which is a large room (33'x13') and open to the other living areas of our home and they can fill the whole room with deep rich sound. I would just have got PEs BR-1s, but I need 4ohm load and somewhat smaller box. But here they are:



closeup of one:


Here is XO layout - (sorry Chris the 2mh just left too big a gap)


Box size is 7.5"w x 12"h x 8"d, with 2 1" x 1" flared ports in back.

Thanks again Wolf, Chris & John.

Glad I could help! What's next?
Wolf