Help me pick a SWEEEET 8-10" woofer (for music)

[Paul Carmody]

So I have an "uber project" in the works. Strange as it sounds, the genesis for this actually came from my wife, who said, "You keep doing speakers with 'budget' drivers. Why don't you try using the expensive parts and see what happens?" (No, really. Yes, she's a keeper.)

This will be a TMW. The mid may--or may not--be OB, we'll see how the mood hits me. In a sense, it's my take on something like Tony Gee's "Andromeda." (And yeah, it'll probably end up looking pretty similar, too)

I have all the parts, except the woofer. That's where I need some guidance

Tweeter - SS 9700 (or maybe BG Neo3 PDR, if it really is as good as they say it is)
Mid - SS 8545K
Woofer - ?

I don't know if I'll go for a vented or sealed alignment. Personally, I've found the that the benefit of added extension outweighs sealed alignments, without too much compromise. But I've also heard with my own two ears the benefits of super-quick transients on sealed woofers. So that's still up in the air.

These are for music, and I won't settle for anything higher than an F3 of 30. If it goes lower, that would be even better. I will cross between 200-300.

So what do I have in mind?
-Well, I have to say that I think the SS Revelator woofers are "crap your pants" good. But $350 apiece is simply too much for my wallet to handle.
-I was thinking of the Peerless 10" XLS or XXLS, as that way I could "keep it in the family" and keep price reasonable; plus, I figure if it's good enough for SL's Orions, it should work here.
-I am sort of eyeing the AE 10" drivers. I know they're exceptionally good, but it might be overkill.
-A Peerless SLS 8" may actually be enough, too.

I'm on the fence over whether it matters to get a "sub" versus just a "woofer." The Aethers used a "sub" (Dayton SD215) and they do dig very deep and hit hard, whereas the Sunflowers used a regular "woofer" (Dayton RS225-8), and couldn't go QUITE as low, but have bass that is "cleaner"--for lack of a better word. But both offer a satisfying amount of rumble and power for my music-listening taste. I don't really do Home Theater, so LFE and and sheer "vibration factor" are not an issue.

One more thing, I have to say that I'm really only interested in subs and woofers that are still in production. It's not that I'm not interested in unobtanium, but I guess the more designs I do, the more I want to make them from readily-available parts, should other people want to give them a go.

[brianwalter]

Paul,
While I haven't used any of these, you might consider any of the following:

Usher 89455A. It's an 8" woofer that would match the looks of your SS mid and if it performs like some of the 7" Usher drivers would be an excellent choice.
Aura NS10-513-4A which Madisound currently has on sale for $109, but it is not very efficient and would probably be a better choice if you were going active for the woofer.
Dayton RSS210HF or even RSS225HF. Either should dig plenty deep but the 8" will likely be able to cross a little higher than the 10". Again, neither are very efficient.

Brian Walter

[howard]

Hi,
I am using a pair of the Usher 10" speakers in a 3 way and I like them very much. I got them on sale and I am glad I tried them.
Howard

[AJ]

So I have an "uber project" in the works. Strange as it sounds, the genesis for this actually came from my wife, who said, "You keep doing speakers with 'budget' drivers. Why don't you try using the expensive parts and see what happens?" (No, really. Yes, she's a keeper.)

I don't really have any other suggestions for you, but, does she uhh... have a sister?

[curt_c]

Hi Paul,

The obvious choices would be the Usher 1001A, or the ubiquitous RS270. Both will get down to 30 Hz in roughly 100 liters tuned to 27 Hz

My other thought is a pair of RS225-8’s. These will also get down in the low 30's in a similar enclosure size, and paralleled will provide a 3 dB more sensitive system, albeit as a 4 ohm system.

The 8545K is an excellent mid/woofer, but I think as a dedicated mid, there may be other choices worth considering, although I love that SS sound...

C

[Jeff B.]

So I have an "uber project" in the works. Strange as it sounds, the genesis for this actually came from my wife, who said, "You keep doing speakers with 'budget' drivers. Why don't you try using the expensive parts and see what happens?" (No, really. Yes, she's a keeper.)

This will be a TMW. The mid may--or may not--be OB, we'll see how the mood hits me. In a sense, it's my take on something like Tony Gee's "Andromeda." (And yeah, it'll probably end up looking pretty similar, too)

I have all the parts, except the woofer. That's where I need some guidance

Tweeter - SS 9700 (or maybe BG Neo3 PDR, if it really is as good as they say it is)
Mid - SS 8545K
Woofer - ?

I don't know if I'll go for a vented or sealed alignment. Personally, I've found the that the benefit of added extension outweighs sealed alignments, without too much compromise. But I've also heard with my own two ears the benefits of super-quick transients on sealed woofers. So that's still up in the air.

These are for music, and I won't settle for anything higher than an F3 of 30. If it goes lower, that would be even better. I will cross between 200-300.

So what do I have in mind?
-Well, I have to say that I think the SS Revelator woofers are "crap your pants" good. But $350 apiece is simply too much for my wallet to handle.
-I was thinking of the Peerless 10" XLS or XXLS, as that way I could "keep it in the family" and keep price reasonable; plus, I figure if it's good enough for SL's Orions, it should work here.
-I am sort of eyeing the AE 10" drivers. I know they're exceptionally good, but it might be overkill.
-A Peerless SLS 8" may actually be enough, too.

I'm on the fence over whether it matters to get a "sub" versus just a "woofer." The Aethers used a "sub" (Dayton SD215) and they do dig very deep and hit hard, whereas the Sunflowers used a regular "woofer" (Dayton RS225-8), and couldn't go QUITE as low, but have bass that is "cleaner"--for lack of a better word. But both offer a satisfying amount of rumble and power for my music-listening taste. I don't really do Home Theater, so LFE and and sheer "vibration factor" are not an issue.

One more thing, I have to say that I'm really only interested in subs and woofers that are still in production. It's not that I'm not interested in unobtanium, but I guess the more designs I do, the more I want to make them from readily-available parts, should other people want to give them a go.

How about this one?
http://estore.websitepros.com/1736754/Detail.bok?no=203

[Paul K.]

Even though you essentially ruled it out due to price, the SS22W/8857T I used in the canTiLenas is a real gem, and it doesn't cost $350, "only" $308. An RSS210HF is probably "the" bargain and should easily give you an F3 of 30 Hz or lower in a reasonable-sized box, but when you're all done, the sensitivity will be 83 dB at most with a 4-ohm load to boot, with which your amplifier might struggle.
Paul

[Jed K.]

RS270s would be my choice for a budget woofer and the Excel W26s for cost no object. Honestly, if you are going to cross over low don't waste your money on really expensive woofers. Put more money in the mid.

[pypes]

Perhaps try a pair of these?
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8303

I just started messing with winisd the other day, but from what I can figure out with it it's showing these to have an F3 around 26hz or so in a 63.8L enclosure tuned to 24.28hz

[tktran]

Hi Paul,

Drivers seem to go in and out of fashion and you don't hear much about the SS here. But they are classics IMHO.

The 18W/8545K is fantastic, but you'll need to properly implemented notches filters at around 800Hz and 3KHz, and if you can manage acoustic LR2 that would be even better.

I have Excel 18W's and SS 18W/8545's, and have heard 8545K at length (Dan Wesnor's Ella 8545K/T25CF001 acoustic LR2 2-way.) Well implemented the SS 18W drivers sound stunning- neutral, musical and never call attention to themselves. Just music.
Without attention to the crossover (my own tinkerings) they sound anywhere from average to rubbish . I suspect the extra work required in the XO put a lot of people off, and decide to go with other mids.

For bass I don't think makes any sense going for an 8" when you have a 7" mid. Go for 10 or 12 IMHO.
I have the 10" XLS and I couldn't imagine going with anything smaller in a 3-way. Consider the XXLS (can cross a little higher than XLS) and if you want to cross higher still I'd consider the 10" RS270 or RS10HF/HO, or 10 alu SS revelator. The W26FX is a nice looking driver and good upper bass performance, but for that price just not enough displacement to knock your socks off.

I agree with the sentiment of putting more money into the drivers. The cabinets take me SOOOO long, (cost opportunity), so the cost of the drivers is miniscule in comparison. I've got some friends who are building Zaph's All Metal System ($200 worth of drivers) and they're at it one weekend every fortnight, for more than 1 year... and still going)

regards,
Thanh.

[Paul Carmody]

Thanks guys. The input is dead-on. Really great suggestions. You guys remind me why I love this hobby so much.

First off, questioning using the 8545k as a mid: I'm aware that there are other choices. However, I am interested that they ARE used as mids in some SUPER high-end speakers (Wilson Audio comes to mind). I read Dave Wesnor's writeup on the driver, and also talked to Dennis Murphy about it, and he had very similar things to say. So I may have a bit of work for me--on the other hand, in an open-baffle, things could get unpredictable (read: interesting). But if, in the end, I don't really like it, I'll go for something else. As of now, I have several of them on-hand, so why not?

OK, so let's look at what we got so far:

+SB Acoustics: I was wondering about those. Has anyone really tried them? They have good bloodlines.
+SS SS22W/8857T (Aluminum Revelator): You're right, Paul. That woofer had some of the absolute best bass I've ever heard. And yeah, technically that one IS only $308. Gotta think about that one for a while, still.
+The Usher 1001: looks good, and I know how good their build quality is. But I wonder if it would run out of xmax too soon.
+Dayton RS210HF (and other similar Dayton RS subs): might be nice. Nothing Danish about it, which is kinda sad
+Aurum Cantus AC250: wow!. Ridiculously low Fs. Great price.
+I was also looking at Seas "Prestige" paper and aluminum-coned woofers. Not sure if they come anywhere near the quality of the Excel.
--one interesting thing that's crossing my mind here is that if I were to use a well-controlled paper cone (eg: smooth response), it would allow me to go with an Andy G 3-way linked series XO.

I'm not too concerned about impedance loads or sensitivity. I have an Onkyo Integra receiver, plus various pro audio amps.

Okay, let me size up some boxes here. Keep suggestions coming; great stuff!

[pypes]

I have not heard the SB accoustics. I suggested them purely on spec data and intuition. They look like a solid driver. They are what I would get if I were buying a 10inch for a 3 way.

I actually DO plan on buying them for a 3 way.. but I'm afraid it won't be any time soon enough to give you a review of them; sorry! Probably not til next year will I get around to building my own 3 way.

[Jed K.]

Zaph reported about tests of the SB Acoustics 10" driver in Voice Coil magazine and it did very poorly. The Dayton RS270 is cheaper and lower distortion.

[tktran]

If you can squeeze it in, don't forget the SS 26W/8867T - 10" alu cone.

[pypes]

Zaph reported about tests of the SB Acoustics 10" driver in Voice Coil magazine and it did very poorly. The Dayton RS270 is cheaper and lower distortion.

Ah, alright I'll have to look into that. I'm looking at a pdf archive of the drivers tested by voice coil mag and I'm not seeing tests of the ten. I'll dig deeper. Here's what it says on Zaphs test page about the SB Acoustics SB17NRX35

"Comments: First and foremost, the build quality of this woofer is excellent. It looks like a $200 woofer. Harmonic distortion is excellent due to the thick copper sleeve over the pole piece. Particularly clean through the midrange, though higher distortion in the bass. Response is a little ragged with an odd shaped breakup node that will need special crossover work. The highish Qts means this is best used in a sealed enclosure. Overall, a great value for the price. Tested April 2008." (zaph audio test results, posted without permission but hopefully forgiven )

[lhwidget]

Two thoughts:
I like the bass a low Q sealed enclosure makes also. With a 3-way, why not push the crossover even further down, to about 100 Hz, then use a vented woofer for the rest of the bass range. It seems to preserve the mid-bass clarity, and allows you the freedom to hit the bottom octave with a higher Q alignment where the clarity doesn't seem to be as important.

The only problem that bothers me when working with a larger midrange driver is the center to center spacing between the mid and tweeter. To avoid vertical response problems (if it's an issue), would this push you to lower crossover frequencies where the tweeter's working at frequencies where its HD is higher?

[johnzimmerman]

[QUOTE=undefinition;1521042]So I have an "uber project" in the works. Strange as it sounds, the genesis for this actually came from my wife, who said, "You keep doing speakers with 'budget' drivers. Why don't you try using the expensive parts and see what happens?" (No, really. Yes, she's a keeper.)

Check out this website, I would love to build them!

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ektagrande.htm

JohnZ

[Wolf]

Thanks guys. The input is dead-on. Really great suggestions. You guys remind me why I love this hobby so much.

First off, questioning using the 8545k as a mid: I'm aware that there are other choices. However, I am interested that they ARE used as mids in some SUPER high-end speakers (Wilson Audio comes to mind). I read Dave Wesnor's writeup on the driver, and also talked to Dennis Murphy about it, and he had very similar things to say. So I may have a bit of work for me--on the other hand, in an open-baffle, things could get unpredictable (read: interesting). But if, in the end, I don't really like it, I'll go for something else. As of now, I have several of them on-hand, so why not?

OK, so let's look at what we got so far:

+SB Acoustics: I was wondering about those. Has anyone really tried them? They have good bloodlines.
+SS SS22W/8857T (Aluminum Revelator): You're right, Paul. That woofer had some of the absolute best bass I've ever heard. And yeah, technically that one IS only $308. Gotta think about that one for a while, still.
+The Usher 1001: looks good, and I know how good their build quality is. But I wonder if it would run out of xmax too soon.
+Dayton RS210HF (and other similar Dayton RS subs): might be nice. Nothing Danish about it, which is kinda sad
+Aurum Cantus AC250: wow!. Ridiculously low Fs. Great price.
+I was also looking at Seas "Prestige" paper and aluminum-coned woofers. Not sure if they come anywhere near the quality of the Excel.
--one interesting thing that's crossing my mind here is that if I were to use a well-controlled paper cone (eg: smooth response), it would allow me to go with an Andy G 3-way linked series XO.

I'm not too concerned about impedance loads or sensitivity. I have an Onkyo Integra receiver, plus various pro audio amps.

Okay, let me size up some boxes here. Keep suggestions coming; great stuff!

TB W8-1363SB, RSS210HF, since you're in that ballpark for sensitivity anyway,
Later,
Wolf

[Paul Carmody]

TB W8-1363SB, RSS210HF, since you're in that ballpark for sensitivity anyway,
Later,
Wolf

OK, I've been crunching all sorts of drivers and enclosures into Unibox, been doing some thinking.

I think if I wanted to for sheer low-end extension (and quality), I'd definitely go with the Dayton RSS210 or RSS265. The idea of a 3-way hitting 20 Hz sort of makes me giddy

But it got me thinking: what exactly was I after with this project? I think I wanted to try the "more surface area" approach to bass on this one. I've heard what an 8" moving a lot of air sounds like... but I want to know what's all the fuss about "moving lots of air"? Well, let's find out! If I went with a regular 10" woofer (in an enclosure somewhere between 60-90 liters), I could not only keep the impedance reasonable, but the sensitivity would also stay high.
In those terms, these came out on top:
+Peerless 10" XXLS
+Peerless 10" SLS (Only $52. Why so cheap?)
+Aurum Cantus AC 250F1 (but can someone explain to me the difference between the F1 and the MKII? The F1 models far better for my purpose)
+SB SB2929NRX ($159. I thought SB was supposed to be "budget" drivers)
+HiVi 10.8 and D10G (work pretty similar in terms of modeling)

So that's where I'm at. Any input on those?

[philiparcario]

I would tell you a scanspeak 23w but it costs and is low for sensitivity. On the plus it fits in 30 liters sealed and play to a f3 30hz. I have two and the bass sounds better then any musical bass I have ever heard. a pair will run close to 750. you will need separate amp for it it is 83db sensitive. I triamp my music only 3 ways. scanspeak 23w jordan 92 and LCY 108 ribbons. one of the scanspeaks is in the avatar picture. that is a modified pe .75 ft cab gives a qtc of .8 plays to 31hz


http://s237.photobucket.com/albums/f...b%20scanspeak/

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=1347

I got the black version a pair on ebay for 450 as the price goes up and up I feel less guilty about spending 450 for a pair of woofers.