best 10" woofers

[randy]

I have a pair of MT's that want to build a bass unit for.I want to use 2 -10's per unit.I would like them to be sealed for good tight musical bass.I was thinking of using a 300 watt plate amp per side.The MT's are sealed and probably only go down to about 100 or 90hz .Suggestions for 10" woofers (or sub woofers) price no object and best bang for the buck.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

I have a pair of MT's that want to build a bass unit for.I want to use 2 -10's per unit.I would like them to be sealed for good tight musical bass.I was thinking of using a 300 watt plate amp per side.The MT's are sealed and probably only go down to about 100 or 90hz .Suggestions for 10" woofers (or sub woofers) price no object and best bang for the buck.

The Reference Series subs are very good drivers. A pair of them would be a great match for almost any MT you have.

[philiparcario]

if you want sealed box 2 10's each for music the best are scanspeak 23w's but they are very expensive

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=1347

385 each

a pair will play to 33hz in a 2 cu ft box cost 770 for the pair you want 4 cost 1500



http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...TOKEN=93275343

120 each if you buy 4

now a pair of the rss265 will play to 40hz in the same size box cost 240 a pair 480 total. 1000 dollars more for the extra 7hz . both will sound very good

[Paul Carmody]

Take a look through this thread. Lots of great ideas tossed around.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=206658

Still haven't purchased a 10" yet. But I think if I had to today, I'd go with either the AC250F1 or the Peerless 10" XXLS.

[Deward Hastings]

Either the Dayton RSS265HF or the Peerless 430452 XLS will give excellent performance crossed LR4 active at 200 Hz or below. Tune the low end rolloffs to match and I doubt you could tell them apart, despite their obvious mechanical differences.

[WmAx]

Let's get serious, here. If you want best performance in a sealed cabinet, cost no object... go for JL W7 10" drivers. These are drivers that even well over 25mm one way excursion, are virtually completely linear. Something like this will produce far higher output with very low distortion, when compared to say, Dayton Reference drivers. The W7s are more comparable to something like the TC Sounds Ultra LMS. However, if you want to use their potential, be prepared to feed each 10 in the range of 800 watts RMS.

The JL drivers are not even that expensive if you purchase them from discount dealers.

-Chris

[Jeff B.]

It really depends on what characteristics you want to emphasize - deep bass in a small box, lowest distortion, higher sensitivity but decent extension, etc. All of the drivers mentioned so far are each excellent drivers in different ways. Some are excellent in many ways. However, if you want deep, with good output in a very small box then we shouldn't leave out the HiVi SP10 pictured below. It has some excellent low end characteristics to it. Sensitivity is not that great though, so it requires that you throw quite a bit of power at it if you want to realize its potential.

[gc1]

I have a pair of MT's that want to build a bass unit for.I want to use 2 -10's per unit.I would like them to be sealed for good tight musical bass.I was thinking of using a 300 watt plate amp per side.The MT's are sealed and probably only go down to about 100 or 90hz .Suggestions for 10" woofers (or sub woofers) price no object and best bang for the buck.

Sealed and good tight bass for music... well, 10" are a great choice; quick, detailed, 4 would have low distorion, and handle/mate the 300 watts. 10" is my favorite for music, but not sure which would do well with your speakers. What are your MT's drivers?? Quality [sealed] woofers are becoming rare... too many (sealed and reflex) have extreme Xmax; which is the opposite of fidelity/"tight bass".
Again, what drivers are in your MT's??

GC

[WmAx]

Sealed and good tight bass for music... well, 10" are a great choice; quick, detailed, 4 would have low distorion, and handle/mate the 300 watts. 10" is my favorite for music, but not sure which would do well with your speakers. What are your MT's drivers?? Quality [sealed] woofers are becoming rare... too many (sealed and reflex) have extreme Xmax; which is the opposite of fidelity/"tight bass".
Again, what drivers are in your MT's??

GC

What a bunch of non-sense.

Based on your statement, for example, a TC Sounds Ultra LMS or JL W7 are not be considered high-fidelity. This is absurd. They have incredible linearity, in both the motor and suspension systems, with almost identical properties near rated x-max as they do in small signal performance.

Tightness is a subjective term, and a function purely determined by frequency response, based on any evidence I have witnessed that is even half-way credible, if the driver is not distorting audibly, that is(in which audible distortion, depending on the circumstances, may effect subjective interpretations).

In a sealed cabinet, a large linear motion woofer is absolutely ideal, if a considerable extension is to be had with any degree of dynamic range ability, since in a sealed system, raw woofer displacement is one of the primary determing factors of SPL vs. frequency.

-Chris

[gc1]

What a bunch of non-sense.

Based on your statement, for example, a TC Sounds Ultra LMS or JL W7 are not be considered high-fidelity. This is absurd. They have incredible linearity, in both the motor and suspension systems, with almost identical properties near rated x-max as they do in small signal performance.

Tightness is a subjective term, and a function purely determined by frequency response, based on any evidence I have witnessed that is even half-way credible, if the driver is not distorting audibly, that is(in which audible distortion, depending on the circumstances, may effect subjective interpretations).

In a sealed cabinet, a large linear motion woofer is absolutely ideal, if a considerable extension is to be had with any degree of dynamic range ability, since in a sealed system, raw woofer displacement is one of the primary determing factors of SPL vs. frequency.

-Chris

You're making several assumptions... I'm not familiar with/interested in TC or JL, but I was saying to "Randy" what is -my opinion- about the extreme excursion seen today... and btw; keeps increasing as time passes. I'm "old school", i.e. from the time when accuracy meant drivers trying to -reproduce- similar transients as the signal... within the volume possible from a driver doing so. Today, volume is more important than fidelity... if you disagree with this, then we have different opinions about the meaning of "fidelity". But my opinion is no more "nonsense" than yours.
BTW... manners are surely lacking these days also!!

GC

[WmAx]

You're making several assumptions... I'm not familiar with/interested in TC or JL, but I was saying to "Randy" what is -my opinion- about the extreme excursion seen today... and btw; keeps increasing as time passes. I'm "old school", i.e. from the time when accuracy meant drivers trying to -reproduce- similar transients as the signal... within the volume possible from a driver doing so. Today, volume is more important than fidelity... if you disagree with this, then we have different opinions about the meaning of "fidelity". But my opinion is no more "nonsense" than yours.
BTW... manners are surely lacking these days also!!

GC

If you are talking about the traditional high xmax drivers, then you are correct.

I apologize if I came off a bit abrasive, but I am used to people making crazy claims that should know better. But it seems as if you legitimately have not kept up with the state of technology in regards to woofers.

There do exist, high x-max drivers designed only to be of the highest fidelity physically possible. The W7 technology JL Audio driver and the TC Sounds ULTRA LMS are two such rare examples. The JL W7 has been measured by several credible parties on sophisticated analysis equipment such as the Klippel analyzer, and it is found to be the most ideal sub-woofer measured to date in regards to motor and suspension linearity, and with extraordinary low power compression. This means that regardless of the input signal level to the sub-woofer, it will follow/reproduce that signal as close as is physically possible with current woofer technology.

-Chris

[Wolf]

The JL W7 has been measured by several credible parties on sophisticated analysis equipment such as the Klippel analyzer, and it is found to be the most ideal sub-woofer measured to date in regards to motor and suspension linearity, and with extraordinary low power compression. This means that regardless of the input signal level to the sub-woofer, it will follow/reproduce that signal as close as is physically possible with current woofer technology.

-Chris

AH! You are incorrect, my friend! The Critical Mass UL12 is the most linear. Look that one up!
Wolf

[jdclark]

I wasnt going to bring it up for fear of being murdered, but I might consider the JL 10w3. They are GREAT for really low frequencies and have very quick/tight bass response. However, in their upper range, they lack detail. So, if you only want to use em for sub 60-70hz I would go for it.

[WmAx]

AH! You are incorrect, my friend! The Critical Mass UL12 is the most linear. Look that one up!
Wolf

This appears to be a rather recent driver that I have missed. I did review the analysis - it even exceeds W7 - by somewhat. Incredible linearity. Apparently, before the suspension and motor becomes non-linear to the point of audible distortion, the unit is nearing 40mm one way excursion on the UL12. That is simply incredible. If one wanted the ultimate, this would be it, it seems.

However, with a W7 with roughly 85% or so of the excursion while maintaining perfect linearity, I personally will have to go with the W7 due to cost reasons, since a 12" W7 can be had for less than half the price. I don't think I will ever even use 10 percent of the W7 capabilities with music.

-Chris

[gc1]

This appears to be a rather recent driver that I have missed. I did review the analysis - it even exceeds W7 - by somewhat. Incredible linearity. Apparently, before the suspension and motor becomes non-linear to the point of audible distortion, the unit is nearing 40mm one way excursion on the UL12. That is simply incredible. If one wanted the ultimate, this would be it, it seems.

However, with a W7 with roughly 85% or so of the excursion while maintaining perfect linearity, I personally will have to go with the W7 due to cost reasons, since a 12" W7 can be had for less than half the price. I don't think I will ever even use 10 percent of the W7 capabilities with music.

-Chris

It does seem that we differ on the meaning of fidelity... as I see it; linear (or other) cone travel anywhere near 40mm is physically incompatible with "fidelity". I know of no laws of physics that would allow that much mass to travel that distance, and at the speed needed/capable of [re]producing "fidelity's" transients. Granted, 40mm will "produce" volume, and can do so with linearity regarding the motor/voice coil function... but it still doesn't qualify as "fidelity". It's great for the dramatics of HT, but not the reward of music's reproduced integrity.
btw... low IM distortion does not = low harmonic distortion. And these "tests" they perform are far from being able to reveal the ability of sound equipment's accuracy in it's designed objectives. That's why you see so many "tests" in audio magazines... to convince of their legitimacy.

GC

[WmAx]

It does seem that we differ on the meaning of fidelity... as I see it; linear (or other) cone travel anywhere near 40mm is physically incompatible with "fidelity". I know of no laws of physics that would allow that much mass to travel that distance, and at the speed needed/capable of [re]producing "fidelity's" transients. Granted, 40mm will "produce" volume, and can do so with linearity regarding the motor/voice coil function... but it still doesn't qualify as "fidelity". It's great for the dramatics of HT, but not the reward of music's reproduced integrity.
btw... low IM distortion does not = low harmonic distortion. And these "tests" they perform are far from being able to reveal the ability of sound equipment's accuracy in it's designed objectives. That's why you see so many "tests" in audio magazines... to convince of their legitimacy.

GC

IM and HD are closely inter-related, as can be seen by analysis of virtually any random transducer, when observing the HD performance at both F1 and F2 stimulus points for the IM test. That is, if HD measures low at F1 and F2, then IM will almost certainly measure low. But anyways, these woofers discussed here measure far lower distortion in the bandwidths used than human can hear in music program.

As for transient response - that is purely a function of frequency response. Take any two drivers and band limit them to same acoustic response, with equal roll off points and corner Q, and they will have equivalent transient response. The use in this thread is for under 100Hz. One can hardly talk of transients with an upper band limit of 100Hz. The woofers discussed here excel when crossed at 100Hz or lower.

As for fidelity - mechanical noise analysis, harmonic distortion(vs. SPL points), frequency response, and power compression tell you about the important audible points so far as acoustic test analysis of low frequency transducers. There is no secret parameter proven to exist that I know of that can not be measured.

The W7 drivers, btw, are pretty much considered the highest fidelity commercial subs in home use, even for music, it seems, by most reviewers that have tried them. Just look up JL Audio Fathom F112, F113 models and relevant reviews. These use W7 variant woofers, super long x-max and all. Now I don't condone use of such reviews to verify anything - as these guys hear cables and magic stones placed on amplifiers..... I'm just relaying that no obvious negative qualities have been observed on these particular high x-max drivers that I recommend for hi-fi use. If you look around enough, of course, you can find a minority that will complain about ANYTHING.

-Chris

[jonasz]

My vote goes for a pair of Aurasound NS10-513 wired in series. It's on sale for $109 wich is a steal!

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...products_id=79

[HareBrained]

My vote goes for a pair of Aurasound NS10-513 wired in series. It's on sale for $109 wich is a steal!

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...products_id=79

I'll second this one. Well worth consideration.

[gc1]

If you look around enough, of course, you can find a minority that will complain about ANYTHING.
-Chris
````````````````````
Yes sir... there is always a -minority- that is usually more interested in reality (choose; the blue pill or the red pill)!!
:-)

GC

btw... a driver can produce excellent fidelity within a limited volume, but have high IMD as volume exceeds it's design limits... this is common. These different distortions; IMD, THD, poor transients, etc, are indeed "audible"... but easily confused with sound [re]production.

[dcsoundz]

My vote goes for a pair of Aurasound NS10-513 wired in series. It's on sale for $109 wich is a steal!

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...products_id=79

I was just wondering how it ($98) compares to the DIYMA 12" subwoofer (in terms of bang-for-the-buck) for home use in a moderate sized room?

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...lies-last.html