best sub kits for stereo music?

[demasoni]

Hi,

I'm looking for recommendations for the best kit subs for home stereo music listening. I really don't know anything about woodworking, so a DIY sub is out of the question.

From browsing various forums, I heard the Titanics are better suited to home theater than music. I have also heard that the RSS woofers are more suited to music, but can also do HT.

Additionally, I have read that 10" drivers are better - faster, tighter - than larger ones.

If this is the case, can the 10" RSS driver be put into the 10" Titanic kit cabinet?

Also, are 2 subs essential for stereo bass?

My mains are MTM floorstanders and are flat to about 60 Hz in my room from my listening position.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[dwigle]

Check out the RS12HF kit: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-742

I have both the titanic and RS drivers and found the RS to be more musical drivers - and the difference is not small. I believe the smaller vs larger driver, faster vs slower concept is no longer relevant if it ever was. Might have been true of old technology midbass drivers. I wouldn't worry about the "speed" of the RS drivers. I have a pair mated to Acoustat Electrostatics and have no integration issues. If used below about 80hz the sound should appear omni directional and only one is required - but. Two subs are very useful in mitigating interaction from the room. Your receiver will likely send a summed mono signal anyway. Unless you have a very small room I would not go with the 10" unless you go with two of them. How large is your room and what are your listening habits? You might start with a single RS12HF and add another later if you feel need (want) more.

[demasoni]

My room is 19' L x 19' W x 11' H. I like to listen to lots of R&B, Pop, and Electronica. However, I also love Jazz and Female Vocals as well as some Classical.

I will be sending the sub signal from an Outlaw RR2150 Retro Receiver from either the sub out or from the speaker outs to the sub ins using a "custom" made cable. I've read that running a high level connection to the sub sounds better than line level - like REL subs. Any ideas on types of connections and what sounds better? Running mains full-range or not?

[philiparcario]

you need a sub crossover and a second amp if you want stereo bass. lots of ways to do it. here are 12 inch nht 1259's with a pair of mtm's

[philiparcario]

I would buy 2 of these

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-444

275

I would buy two of these

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-820

390

1 of these

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=248-664

80

1 of these

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=248-745

300. total of 1045. less then two kits and more flexible. you would need to cut 2 holes in the baffles. if you live in new jersey i would cut them if you bring them to my house for free. If you want to got the cable route for a special attachment if would be different amps and crossover.

[nordhaven]

With stereo, 10" is the way to go! 8" has port noise from overdirven X-mas trying to hit the low freqs. 12" get muddy boomy rumble untill they get enough power to open up. The 10's are just,,, best I've tried them all.

Two 10's near your fronts are the way to go. I have tried one 12 or 15 in the corner and it just dont blend in good. Two 8" are over worked and over expressed with big fall off when they get near there low limmits.

On the cheap you could do 10" Dayton HF"s with (automotive) in-line low pass 4ohm 100Hz filters. Asuming your MTM's are 4 ohm? And you stereo amp could do 150W @ 4ohm per channel (B).

[demasoni]

Thanks for the info guys,

philiparcario:

I live in Hawaii, but I used to live in NYC, then I could certainly go to your house! I'm sure someone in Maui has the know how and capability to cut two holes in the cabinet for those 12 inchers. Good idea with the outboard amp, I've read that outboard amps are better than in-box plate amps.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand your last sentence, then again, I just drank 4 Mendocino Brewing Co Red Tail Ale beers!

nordhaven:

What automotive are you talking about? Yes, my MTM's are 4 ohm, and the ports are plugged with the supplied foam plugs - I think they sound better that way. The Outlaw 2150 does 160W into 4 ohms.

[dwigle]

I bet to differ on the 12 vs 10s. High quality 12s aren't muddy unless used in the wrong alignment. The in-line low pass filter nordhaven is referring to is an inexpensive passive filter frequently used in car audio. I don't think I'd go that way given the level of performance it sounds like you're after. I'd stay away from anything related to car audio for serious home use - frankly, car audio drivers are often chosen because of their color and they look cool. I'd go with the RS12HF kit for the easy route or Philip's suggestion using the same driver in a larger box and outboard amp. Either way you will have quality that compares to commercial brands costing $1500+ each.

[philiparcario]

Thanks for the info guys,

philiparcario:

I live in Hawaii, but I used to live in NYC, then I could certainly go to your house! I'm sure someone in Maui has the know how and capability to cut two holes in the cabinet for those 12 inchers. Good idea with the outboard amp, I've read that outboard amps are better than in-box plate amps.

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand your last sentence, then again, I just drank 4 Mendocino Brewing Co Red Tail Ale beers!

my last sentence was an attempt to address your remark in quotes below.

"from the speaker outs to the sub ins using a "custom" made cable. I've read that running a high level connection to the sub sounds better than line level - like REL subs. Any ideas on types of connections and what sounds better?"

I would not do it that way due to crossover complications.

with my previous idea the behringer lets you cross from 44hz up. I would cross at 60hz to 80hz. it would relieve your mtm's of the mid bass to regular bass duties. It also has a sub sonic filter that high passes at 25hz that would protect the subs from crazy deep bass. you will like the system.

[Todd G.]

12" get muddy boomy rumble untill they get enough power to open up. The 10's are just,,, best I've tried them all.

He know'eth not of that which he speaks.

[brianpowers27]

I hate to be the nay sayer but here it goes. WHy run stereo? If you are crossed as low as 80hz you probably can't tell. Having mixed audio I will tell you that most audio is mixed mono at this frequency.

Based on the conclusion from this whitepaper,(http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf) if you are going to run 2 subs, place one in the front center of the room and one in back.

[nordhaven]

He know'eth not of that which he speaks.

Your right that was a pretty broad statement. Not fair to lump all 12's into a category.

Here is the crossover it is not crappy automotive stuff just look at the capacitor. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=266-100

[dwigle]

Your right that was a pretty broad statement. Not fair to lump all 12's into a category.

Here is the crossover it is not crappy automotive stuff just look at the capacitor. http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=266-100

That passive crossover has a 12db slope at 100hz and would pass high enough frequencies to make the sub sound directional. Even the 80hz version would be not much better. These are made for a car. Even a decent plate amp has a 24db slope. I'm with the other posters. Cross the sub at 60-80 with a steep slope.

[nordhaven]

That passive crossover has a 12db slope at 100hz and would pass high enough frequencies to make the sub sound directional. Even the 80hz version would be not much better. These are made for a car. Even a decent plate amp has a 24db slope. I'm with the other posters. Cross the sub at 60-80 with a steep slope.

IMHO what you recommend is great for home theater (movies) as a mater of fact thats the recommended setup per the pros. I think dedicated music subs (2)are better with an higher extension. Here is a good example.http://www.selahaudio.com/id69.html

"Add-On Woofer – This is always called a subwoofer, but because it accompanies small main speakers that have little or no bass response below 60Hz, these devices can never be true subwoofers. With 60Hz or thereabouts as the bass limit of the main speakers, the crossover for a "subwoofer" has to be one octave higher, 120Hz in this case. And the "subwoofer" will have to have excellent sound quality up for at least one octave above the crossover point -- 240Hz in this case. You can’t tell where bass is coming from when frequencies are below roughly 100Hz, so when there is bass below 100Hz, having a single "subwoofer" is acceptable. However, in this case, the "subwoofer" is going to be producing sound at 240Hz or even a little higher. It is quite easy to tell where these frequencies are coming from. This tells us that you simply must have two of this type of "subwoofer" to retain excellent stereo imaging. Because two are needed they must be placed close to the main speakers to maintain stereo separation.
These are best referred to as "add-on woofers" or just "woofers" because they are definitely not subwoofers. To reproduce 240Hz or higher, you are going to be limited to a cone size of 10" at the most, while 8" may be more practical. This small of a driver will not reproduce 20Hz, and probably not even 30Hz in any enclosure of domestically acceptable size and shape. In fact, in many cases, these devices may have a hard time getting below 40Hz because they are usually very much budget products. Which is all the sadder because they always seem to be sold alone. You really must have a pair of add-on woofers in order to preserve any semblance of stereo imaging in the upper-bass and lower-midrange octaves. As I said earlier, good bass is expensive. IN A NUT SHELL!

[philiparcario]

you can argue for a 10 inch as a woofer for music. the setup I have is a pair of nht1259's set under my mtm's the nht1259's run from 50hz to 100hz. they are really woofers the mtm's run from 100hz to 22000hz. I have a subwoofer that runs from 18hz to 50 hz.

I picked a 12 inch rss315hf-8 for his system because it will run to 160hz with less distortion then the rss315hf-4. that is why a told him to get the bigger box. I know the woofer will run from 25hz to 160hz in that sealed and filled box with almost no distortion in that range. It is important to use the 8ohm version in the larger box or it will not work as well.

when I setup my system I started with a crossover point of 60hz my mtm's are rated f3 of 57hz. i did not like it i raised the point to 80hz it improved. i raised it to 100hz it was even better. The best I found was about 110hz. to save money and 1 less set of wires/box i crossed at 100hz. That is why I agree with you that the 120hz crossover point may work. The beauty of the behringer is he can high filter the rss315's at 25hz and cross to the mtm from 44hz to 600hz. he can find what he likes best. my guess is 80hz or 100hz if he listen to bass like I do or 60 hz if he likes a little boom boom boom.
The passive pieces of crossover you mention can work but offer no flexibility. so it becomes more of an all or nothing move. does not mean that a nice scan speak 23w (10 inch cone ) crossed at 100hz in a 1 foot cube won't work with the passive crossover you mention. it just might be better.

[johnastockman]

IMHO what you recommend is great for home theater (movies) as a mater of fact thats the recommended setup per the pros. I think dedicated music subs (2)are better with an higher extension. Here is a good example.http://www.selahaudio.com/id69.html

"Add-On Woofer – This is always called a subwoofer, but because it accompanies small main speakers that have little or no bass response below 60Hz, these devices can never be true subwoofers. With 60Hz or thereabouts as the bass limit of the main speakers, the crossover for a "subwoofer" has to be one octave higher, 120Hz in this case. And the "subwoofer" will have to have excellent sound quality up for at least one octave above the crossover point -- 240Hz in this case. You can’t tell where bass is coming from when frequencies are below roughly 100Hz, so when there is bass below 100Hz, having a single "subwoofer" is acceptable. However, in this case, the "subwoofer" is going to be producing sound at 240Hz or even a little higher. It is quite easy to tell where these frequencies are coming from. This tells us that you simply must have two of this type of "subwoofer" to retain excellent stereo imaging. Because two are needed they must be placed close to the main speakers to maintain stereo separation.
These are best referred to as "add-on woofers" or just "woofers" because they are definitely not subwoofers. To reproduce 240Hz or higher, you are going to be limited to a cone size of 10" at the most, while 8" may be more practical. This small of a driver will not reproduce 20Hz, and probably not even 30Hz in any enclosure of domestically acceptable size and shape. In fact, in many cases, these devices may have a hard time getting below 40Hz because they are usually very much budget products. Which is all the sadder because they always seem to be sold alone. You really must have a pair of add-on woofers in order to preserve any semblance of stereo imaging in the upper-bass and lower-midrange octaves. As I said earlier, good bass is expensive. IN A NUT SHELL!

I think that for your app, a couple of the RSS 10" drivers, each in their own enclosure for left & right placement. Shawn A. used the RSS 10" in a 1 ft3 sealed box and a plate amp. I built a subwoofer a few months ago using the RSS315HF-4 driver and the HPSA 500 watt amp. I made the enclosure 2.5 ft3, sealed. It's used for music only in my nephew's system. When I relace my current DIY sub, it'll be with the RSS315, that 500W amp and that box volume...a huge step up from what I have now. But an RSS265 in 1 ft3 on each side sounds like an excellent combo for music. You'd have to ask someone here if the HF or the HO version would be better...I'm not sure about the 10", myself, but the 12" RSS HF worked great in 2.5 ft3, sealed. The 500 watt amp has a parametric EQ on it, adjustable XO and output level. Most receivers/amps have an adjustable cross-point for the "sub-out" or "LFE" jack, so you could get the subs dailed in to your preferences and the room. My 2 cents...

John A.

[jdclark]

I hate to be the nay sayer but here it goes. WHy run stereo? If you are crossed as low as 80hz you probably can't tell. Having mixed audio I will tell you that most audio is mixed mono at this frequency.

Based on the conclusion from this whitepaper,(http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf) if you are going to run 2 subs, place one in the front center of the room and one in back.

Sorry, I can never believe that. The differences become more and more subtle at lower frequencies, but stereo bass with good drivers will sound much tighter than mono.

[msk]

I have used a pair of Titanic 10" subs (with 240 watt plate amp) for a couple of years now with no problems of any kind and the LF was more that enough for me in a larger room (26 x 32ft), now my man cave is smaller (16 x 15ft), and I use the PE Usher 701 kits as mains with monoblock amplifiers..so there is no real advantage to using a sub at all now, they sit getting dusty, might do some HT for optimal use...sorry to stray a little OT, If I was buying a sub now, definately a pair of the RS 12" w/500 watt plate amp, I lost all woodworking tools a few years ago, so now I just do the kit thing, best cabinets yet!