Mark & Daniel DM-4 Measurments

[jasont]

Zaph Audio has sent me the measurments of the DM-4 drivers so here they are for you guys.
I hope this works I've never attached images here

[gmilitano]

Yikes! What is the price on these?

[jasont]

Yikes! What is the price on these?

$250 a pair

you can see them here
http://www.mark-daniel.com/Dir_En.asp?Proid=13

[jkim]

Nice from a nonlinear distortion standpoint. Somewhat higher distortion products in narrow bands may be due to FR peaks at 2 k, 4 k, and 7 kHz. But as for the linear distortion, it looks terrible. How audible will this be? I'm not sure. Anyway, it's unique in that it can be crossed much lower than a typical 1" dome tweeter. 2-ways using this driver will give different listening experience due to a different power response.

[jasont]

well I can tell you that they don't sound nearly as bad as the graphs indicate.
Although most speaker manufactures claim their speakers are flat yet some sound sharp and some dull so I guess there's no winning.

Honestly these are one of the most detailed drivers I have ever listened to.

[gowa]

You got to be kidding.

[jasont]

no I'm not.
there are plenty of people that have heard this driver and will tell you how detailed and wonderful it sounds.

I'm actually quite stunned by how the measurements came out.
I have a pair of Seas 27tffc's that sound worse than these do so I really dont get it but this is what I was given by Zaph audio although one of the drivers was damaged badly so I'm wondering if something happend to the other one as well.

[eyekode]

FR is... interesting.
Harmonic distortion is not too bad.
CSD looks like lots of energy storage issues.
And impedance... is that peak at 7k?!

They may sound interesting but I don't see how they could be considered faithful.
I could see one saying "detailed" because with peaks like that I am sure you are emphasizing parts of the music that are typically not as apparent.

I am disappointed, I was really looking forward to 10" 2-way

[jasont]

As I said before one of the drivers was badly damage when it got to Zaphs so I'm thinking maybe the other was damaged as well ?

Anyone want to do some measuring ?
I will send a pair of the dm-2 and dm-4 to you if anyone is interested.

Let me know

[jasont]

FR is... interesting.
Harmonic distortion is not too bad.
CSD looks like lots of energy storage issues.
And impedance... is that peak at 7k?!

They may sound interesting but I don't see how they could be considered faithful.
I could see one saying "detailed" because with peaks like that I am sure you are emphasizing parts of the music that are typically not as apparent.

I am disappointed, I was really looking forward to 10" 2-way

I am dissapointed as well More than you can imagine

The impedance peak at 7k was the test done with the notch filter in place.
A watse of parts if you ask me.

[russwhite]

It looks to me that the impedance never drops below 6ohms... Am I reading that correctly?

So did Zaph measure both with and without the notch filter?

Is it better without the filter?

[jasont]

It looks to me that the impedance never drops below 6ohms... Am I reading that correctly?

So did Zaph measure both with and without the notch filter?

Is it better without the filter?

He did measure them both ways.
Personally I would go without the notch filter

[dubbreak]

How did you ship them to Zaph? I assume the same way you'd ship to customers.. so are these drivers inherently delicate? I think you get my point. If this is how they performed shipped to Zaph, why would they perform any different shipped elsewhere if you are using the same shipping?

I'm assuming Zaph is busy and he did state this is the last batch of speakers he'd be testing for a while, but if you are absolutely certain damage lead to poor measurements then why not contact him to see if he could measure some more? Pack them super carefully, mark them delicate and ship them off courier.

The FR is pretty crazy, the peaks and dips are big enough for anyone to hear (>6db) (though if crossing actively I would be assume the user has the ability to eq that out). That could be leading to "details" you are hearing. You claim they sound better than seas, but why would anyone trust the golden ear of someone who is trying to sell you that item? Not saying you are wrong, but if someone like JeffB, Wolf etc said they sound great it'd be easier to believe. The seas definitely measure better (in it's intended usage range).

I'd be very curious to see other measurements. It could be damaged drivers, it could be that is just the way they perform. I checked the M&D site and didn't see any measurements or claims on their speakers of how deviate within the claimed frequency response (many speaker manufacturers will claim +/-3db or +/-6db etc). Maybe this is the reason for that?

[jasont]

How did you ship them to Zaph? I assume the same way you'd ship to customers.. so are these drivers inherently delicate? I think you get my point. If this is how they performed shipped to Zaph, why would they perform any different shipped elsewhere if you are using the same shipping?

I'm assuming Zaph is busy and he did state this is the last batch of speakers he'd be testing for a while, but if you are absolutely certain damage lead to poor measurements then why not contact him to see if he could measure some more? Pack them super carefully, mark them delicate and ship them off courier.

The FR is pretty crazy, the peaks and dips are big enough for anyone to hear (>6db) (though if crossing actively I would be assume the user has the ability to eq that out). That could be leading to "details" you are hearing. You claim they sound better than seas, but why would anyone trust the golden ear of someone who is trying to sell you that item? Not saying you are wrong, but if someone like JeffB, Wolf etc said they sound great it'd be easier to believe. The seas definitely measure better (in it's intended usage range).

I'd be very curious to see other measurements. It could be damaged drivers, it could be that is just the way they perform. I checked the M&D site and didn't see any measurements or claims on their speakers of how deviate within the claimed frequency response (many speaker manufacturers will claim +/-3db or +/-6db etc). Maybe this is the reason for that?

I did ask Zaph to test a second pair and was turned down as he is very busy right now.
I will have another test done in the next couple of weeks and get the results posted again.

These are fairly brittle drivers but I packed them pretty darn good and have sent 2 pairs out of the country already in the exact same box with no problems at all with damage.

I used fedex to ship them to Zaph and probably wont do that again.

It's bizarre to me why M&D doesnt have the graphs posted or like you said maybe its the design ?
From what I understand the designer seems to think that Modular distortion is more important than FR but how does that even make sense ? it seems to me that the driver loosing control would cause distortion but maybe I'm wrong.

[russwhite]

Well, what seems odd to me is the notch filter, 7-8khz does not seem to be a logical spot.

I could understand a notch from 10khz to 20khz where response seems to peak.

[framus]

As I said before one of the drivers was badly damage when it got to Zaphs so I'm thinking maybe the other was damaged as well ?

Anyone want to do some measuring ?
I will send a pair of the dm-2 and dm-4 to you if anyone is interested.

Let me know

Howdy I'm in the midst of measuring a whole bunch of high-end drivers for a new design I'm working on. I would be happy to check out your tweets, and also implement them in a finished design to get a better idea of their potential. Just let me know. Cheers, dennis murphy

[spasticteapot]

I wonder how the old Heil AMTs measure?

A lot of people on Audiokarma think they're the bees' knees.

[framus]

I wonder how the old Heil AMTs measure?

A lot of people on Audiokarma think they're the bees' knees.

I'm not sure how to post graphs here, but I did complete one design with the AMT. I didn't save any distortion measurements, but the basic response was very good, with a couple of dips at 2 and 4 kHz. But above that, it was pretty much a straight line out to forever.

[spasticteapot]

I'm not sure how to post graphs here, but I did complete one design with the AMT. I didn't save any distortion measurements, but the basic response was very good, with a couple of dips at 2 and 4 kHz. But above that, it was pretty much a straight line out to forever.

Which version? A "Great Heil"?

Aside from the distortion issues, there's definite potential for bad Nazi puns.

[dubbreak]

I'm not sure how to post graphs here, but I did complete one design with the AMT. I didn't save any distortion measurements, but the basic response was very good, with a couple of dips at 2 and 4 kHz. But above that, it was pretty much a straight line out to forever.

If you don't have it posted anywhere online then you can upload it to your user gallery. Just click "user CP" and you'll find it.