Line Array and Sub for 6 String Bass Guitar

[cybersean3000]

I play a 6 string bass, and I am having a terrible time finding an amp/cabinet combo that can handle the 30.9 hz of the low open B string. I play live in small to medium size venues (churches mostly), and I am very interested in a combination linear array and sub woofer, like the Bose L1 series.

I have found the Kuze 3201 here: http://www.partsexpress.com/projects.../Kuze3201.html

And I have found someone who built (and is selling) the 3201's with a sub woofer here:
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls....rrays-With-Sub

This is my first homebuilt project, and I really don't know where to begin, nor do I even know what questions to ask. Since the Tang Band W2-880S is no longer available, I thought about using the Tang Band W2-803SM 2" Driver with a sub that can go down into the 20 - 30 hz range. I am sure I will need some kind of cross over as well.

Any expert suggestions would be helpful.

[Texan]

I am not the one to reference with this question, but I hope I have some info that can help. First the standard battery of questions

What is the highest frequency you need to play?

What are you planning on powering this thing with?

Do you have a practical height limit?

Are you going to be using any tube distortion?
If so you might be able to put less priority on driver accuracy.

It will probably be easier to build something for the frequency range you are going to use than a full range design

Your high frequency limit will dictate how far apart the centers of the speakers could be. This in turn will limit (or not) the diameter of speaker you can use. I expect that you can get a bigger speaker and get away with it, and maybe get better performance.

Good luck

[cybersean3000]

Frequency Range

For the B0 note, the frequency is 30.9 hz (actually 30.87 hz) and for the C5 note, the frequency is 523.25 Hz. To handle harmonic frequencies, many commercial cabinets claim to go up to 16 Mhz, but the article by Len Moskowitz has the the top end between 5 Mhz and 7 Mhz. Another article I found said the top end doesn't need to go above 8 Mhz. So, I guess the frequency range needs to be 30.9 hz to 8 Mhz.

Height: Less than 8 ft. For portability, it should probably be separated into two sections.

Distortion: I don't usually play bass with distortion

I have not yet selected an amplifier for this project.

[Texan]

Ok so we can say frequency range of 30 to 550hz. Hopefully someone can chime in and tell us how many harmonics (multiples of) we have to cover of the 550hz. I would guess you need the fundamental and the second harmonic so about 1100hz. Your frequency range will be (30 to 1100hz). Don’t worry the mega hertz stuff Mhz is some processor speed or something digital. It won’t affect a speaker build. Here is a cool old school link that I looked at to learn about arrays.

http://www.electrovoice.com/document...rays080502.pdf

It’s pretty technical so don’t get overwhelmed. If you decide to keep going on this some of these things will become less obscure (but some are obscure). I would just skim over it a couple of times and keep it in your head without getting caught up in stuff that is out there. if this is to crazy read the wiki. Better yet I would read the wiki first

In the mean time maybe someone will confirm the frequency range.

[billfitzmaurice]

I play a 6 string bass, and I am having a terrible time finding an amp/cabinet combo that can handle the 30.9 hz of the low open B string.
Any expert suggestions would be helpful.

Flat response to the lowest fundamental is not required. The primary power bandwidth of electric bass starts with the second harmonic, which is why a Fridge with an F3 of 58 Hz has no problem handling the low B. Even with a smaller rig an f3 of 45-50 Hz is all one needs, which explains why electric bass cabs with lower f3s than that are rare.

[Texan]

That link is really technical. I am wondering if I should have put it up or not. Oh well building a line looks like one of the bigger challenges out there. Most line attempts become over complicated or impractical along the way. We will just have to see what happens.

Bill,

I guess that explains it on the low frequency end
Have you got info pertaining to the high frequency?

[dotzs]

I have only have been given the budget to build a few six string bass rigs that work and can been transported by one person .The pricey (but worth it) 18 inch E.V. will handle your B string and the 5 inch "monitor speaker" will not explode and do your top string ,what you use for the mid bass is up to you .

Even if you play in somewhat quiet bands and venues be very carefull about using drivers that are made to reproduce pre programed material ,as a bass player your dynamics can be hard on even the finest " home " drivers .
It is a compromise and thats why you won't see the issue of bass B strings being marketed ,most pre fab p/a subs won't give you your low B at volumes you may need .For an amp for the real world of bass playing try to go with good a/b switching amps with gobs of head room. About 80 percent of your power will go to the 18 inch speaker to make that B come alive,it seems like over kill but thats what a dependable bass amp is about .

[bobblickle]

Flat response to the lowest fundamental is not required. The primary power bandwidth of electric bass starts with the second harmonic, which is why a Fridge with an F3 of 58 Hz has no problem handling the low B. Even with a smaller rig an f3 of 45-50 Hz is all one needs, which explains why electric bass cabs with lower f3s than that are rare.

Bill,
Don't I remember you offering plans for a very nice Bass rig that's not too over the top (a model 250 or something)? I know it's not a Line Array like he asked for but unless he has quite a budget, by the time he gets through all the oh-by-the-ways I'm predicting a case of sticker shock.

To the OP, Check out Bills site:
Billfitzmaurice.com

[dotzs]

As a bass player a truck is part of the procedure ,folded horns are hard to hear on stage , the problem is about what you get on stage over riding everything else because you are pushing long waves .

[Texan]

Yes if anyone has taken the time to cook up a design for this. Line or not I am sure it will be much better than any first attempt. Bill or someone please explain how the required bass extension is…

[cybersean3000]

Thank you all for your responses. I guess I should actually describe the problem I am trying to solve.

I like the 6 string bass, and I like playing the low notes. I have played this bass in 4 different venues and in one of the smaller venues I was told not to hit notes on the B string because their P.A. could not handle it. In another venue, I actually blew out (or more accurately, was accused of blowing out) a P.A. speaker.

I don't want to design and haul an entire P.A. system with mains and monitors every where I play, it won't fit in my car. A huge bass rig with an 18" is impressive to see on stage, it is a pain to transport in my car.

I like the concept of the linear array configuration with a sub or two. From what I understand I can be heard on and off platform with this combination, but the Bose L1 Model II with 2 subs costs over $3,500 and the original L1 with 2 subs is over $2,000.

I like the design because it is modular, portable and powerful. I do not like the cost. Building my own has to be cheaper than buying it from Bose.

[brianpowers27]

Thank you all for your responses. I guess I should actually describe the problem I am trying to solve.

I like the 6 string bass, and I like playing the low notes. I have played this bass in 4 different venues and in one of the smaller venues I was told not to hit notes on the B string because their P.A. could not handle it. In another venue, I actually blew out (or more accurately, was accused of blowing out) a P.A. speaker.

I don't want to design and haul an entire P.A. system with mains and monitors every where I play, it won't fit in my car. A huge bass rig with an 18" is impressive to see on stage, it is a pain to transport in my car.

I like the concept of the linear array configuration with a sub or two. From what I understand I can be heard on and off platform with this combination, but the Bose L1 Model II with 2 subs costs over $3,500 and the original L1 with 2 subs is over $2,000.

I like the design because it is modular, portable and powerful. I do not like the cost. Building my own has to be cheaper than buying it from Bose.

I checked out that bose design from their website. I can't imagine that a system like that can hang with a loud rock drummer, especially in the 30hz dept. When I played our bassist had an 8x10" ampeg cabinet with his 5 string and it sounded great. Bass guitar isn't all about deep sub bass it is about a tonal balance that blends with the guitar.

For the bass portion of your rig... Have you considered Building something with 8x10" speakers or possibly 4x10"? That would be portable and could be loud enough? (How loud is loud enough and at what frequency?)

Your other option is to reconsider your tone. I doubt that many of us would hear the difference in a live setting if you were to roll off some of the bass below 40hz. This would greatly limit the excursion of the speaker system and would likely not be noticable.

Keep in mind the bose system is a (Full range) PA system. You described your need as that of one that doesn't carry other instruments, just the bass guitar. THe tweeter array is most likely not necessary for you.

If you feel the high end is suffering on your rig consider investing in a preamp for the bass speaker rig with a nice tube section and a 11 or so bands of eq. A 10" speaker can produce some highs. Most likely this would be enough high end to cover the overtones of your instrument.

[billfitzmaurice]

I like the concept of the linear array configuration with a sub or two. From what I understand I can be heard on and off platform with this combination, but the Bose L1 Model II with 2 subs costs over $3,500 and the original L1 with 2 subs is over $2,000.

I like the design because it is modular, portable and powerful. I do not like the cost. Building my own has to be cheaper than buying it from Bose.

It's appealing to the layman, but seriously under-engineered, and not much good outside of coffee-house situations. Google Hoffman's Iron Law. There is no such thing as a small speaker that will go both loud and low, Bose's phony claims notwithstanding.

folded horns are hard to hear on stage , the problem is about what you get on stage over riding everything else because you are pushing long waves .

The same boundary effects that exist in the average living room exist on stage, especially null zones, and that, combined with non-existent content above 800 Hz, is why Acoustic 360s and so forth couldn't be heard until one got back out of the null zone. A large folded horn is a sub, and like any sub must be used in conjunction with a top, not on it's own.

[cybersean3000]

Thanks everybody. It sounds like I am better off just buying a head and cabinet.

[spasticteapot]

I don't know much about pro audio, but the most obvious solution to your problem is a 3-way with a generic horn tweeter (I hear the Seleniums offer good value for money), 8" or 10" mid-woofer, and a car audio-style sub.

There's a bit of method to my madness. In case you're not familiar with it, Hoffman's Iron Law says that the efficiency of a speaker is proportional to the cabinet volume multiplied by the square of the lowest bass frequency it can reproduce. Pro-audio subs are often immense - 18" or larger - with huge cabinets and high bass cut-offs for maximum efficiency, while home woofers are often capable of deeper, higher quality bass, but are limited in output by increasing distortion at high excursion and their tendency to melt with over a few hundred watts of power.

However, car audio enthusiasts have always wanted to have their cake and eat it, too, and deal with Hoffman's Iron Law by using subwoofers rated for huge amounts of power. While car audio subs must be able to work in a small box to be useful in a car, they must also play stupendously loud and work up to the 80hz or more required to cross over to car speakers. Modern high-end car subs use vast and complicated motors that will distort very little at huge excursions, and defeat the problem of low efficiency by having huge voice coils rated for hundreds if not thousands of watts. And these days, amps are cheap.

From what I have heard, the Hi-Vi SP10 should be pretty useful for your application - it'll go down past 30hz in a ported box of under 1.5 cubic feet, and can be crossed over above 100hz. If the SP10 does not provide enough output, there are many other options such as the JL Audio 13W7 or (admittedly now somewhat rare) 15" TC Sounds subs.

EDIT: Aside from the need for a monstrous amp to power them, these sort of subwoofers have another major disdvantage: Weight. While a Bill Fitzmaurice bass-horn may be much bigger and not capable of the same deep bass, it would be vastly cheaper to build, need a fraction of the power, and likely weigh a whole lot less.

[Eric.DeYoung]

I am also a bass player, and I've been playing for about 8 years or so. I have a Carvin R600 as my amp (250W into 4 ohms), and an Eden 2x10" cabinet with a tweeter. For me, this has been sufficient for everywhere that I have played, and I can only imagine a few situations where a well designed 4x10" cabinet wouldn't be enough. I do like the tweeter in my cabinet, and I have tried disconnecting it to hear some differences. Even though there aren't any fundamentals up in the tweeter range, there is definitely a noticeable difference, and I much prefer my setup with the tweeter in it. So I say go for it and build a 4x10" cabinet - not too many pro audio type stuff designed, and I'd love to see one on the forum!

Eric

[jeff_free69]

I played in a band where we used the Bose PAS - its a nice idea but i do not recommend it for bass. There are just (2) 6.5 speakers in there; with enough of them i guess you could move sufficient air, though I don't think it is tuned to go very low at all. You certainly don't need that many mid-tweets.

I agree with those who point out that for bass guitar you do not need to worry about being flat down to 30 or 40 Hz. It's nice ( I've played with a JBL 18" in 7+ cuft cab, but nobody wants to lug that around !) , but what people perceive as "chest-thumping" sound is probably more in the 80-100 region.

I recently checked out the specs on a lot of pro bass speakers, and could not find much that can produce true hi-fi / HT type of lows, especially without huge cabinets. my conclusion is that a typical bass amp doesn't really either.

Check out this very intereting project using a simple array of cheap 5" aluminum drivers , ala Phil Jones
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=414959
No reason you couldn't reconfigure into (2) stackable cabinets with 8 drivers each , about 1 ft W x 2ft H.

BUT On the other hand , when it comes to bass i am leary of sending in a bunch of boys to do a man's job. So for a more conventional approach I'd stick with a 15" on the bottom in a 3-4 cuft cab (Eminence Kappalite 3015LFhas been recommended to me).
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=290-598

then combine that with (4) of the 5" aluminum drivers on top. or maybe 8 if yo uwant to get flashy For a bass guitar you probably needn't worry about the ragged hi-end of aluminum cones hi-fi enthusiasts obsess over. it might even bring some beneficial presence to the 6 string without any tweeter. So at most you might put a hi-pass filter around 150hz to protect them from over excursion ( i think thats what bose does).

that project used these Dayton speakers:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...30&ctab=2#Tabs

You might aslo consider these tang bands, currently on sale and 3db more efficient, and have a more extended hi end.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...17&ctab=2#Tabs

[Mipsconsult]

Thank you all for your responses. I guess I should actually describe the problem I am trying to solve.

I like the 6 string bass, and I like playing the low notes. I have played this bass in 4 different venues and in one of the smaller venues I was told not to hit notes on the B string because their P.A. could not handle it. In another venue, I actually blew out (or more accurately, was accused of blowing out) a P.A. speaker.

I don't want to design and haul an entire P.A. system with mains and monitors every where I play, it won't fit in my car. A huge bass rig with an 18" is impressive to see on stage, it is a pain to transport in my car.

I like the concept of the linear array configuration with a sub or two. From what I understand I can be heard on and off platform with this combination, but the Bose L1 Model II with 2 subs costs over $3,500 and the original L1 with 2 subs is over $2,000.

I like the design because it is modular, portable and powerful. I do not like the cost. Building my own has to be cheaper than buying it from Bose.

cybersean3000---

The PA failure issue was not your fault. It was the sound system engineer's fault.

If he/she was taking your signal direct, as opposed to miking your cab, they should have rolled off the low end on the mixer or applied other signal processing controls to prevent this. Sounds like you were dealing with rank amatures.

Good luck with solving you problem. When it comes to bass guitars with a low B, therte have been quantum improvements in amplification systems in the past few years. I'm sure you'll find something.

To all those who suggested any type of home/auto woofer as a solution, you're all wrong. They wouldn't last 10 minutes in a live performance. Remember--pro sound deals with sound PRODUCTION. Home/auto systems deal with reproducing recorded sound that has been master EQ'd & compressed.

Again, please stop confusing pro sound with hi-fi. That seems to be my mantra lately.

[Jason]

I play bass (with a low B) at church and I play through a 2x10 cab as a monitor and split the signal to the board to be mixed FOH. This does two beneficial things - one, it helps keep the stage level down so I'm not stomping all over the other musicians (but I can still hear myself quite well). Second, it makes it much easier for the FOH engineer to get a good mix since he can actually control the bass level. I used to stack the 2x10 on top of a 15", but we had to do away with that because it was overpowering everything else. We have multiple 18" subs with thousands of watts behind them, which is going to sound much better than me up on stage with my single 15" farting at everyone.

I agree with mipsconsult - YOU were not the reason any speakers got blown. The guy mixing should have taken care of that. At a bare minimum turn the bass down. If you have a compressor or limiter, use that. Many boards have a HP filter at around 30Hz, which should have been engaged. He should have known what his sytem was capable of - he's in control of it, and if too much bass was goign to his speakers, he should have heard it and dealt with it.

One other thing to note is that with many modern basses with active EQ, it's very tempting to dime the bass knob. It feels cool (and maybe sounds cool to you), but it usually just sounds like mush to everyone else. I know I have to really restrain myself and try to keep the EQ pretty flat if I want to have people hear notes rather than "woooom woooom woooom". I'm curious what kind of bass you're playing?

[jeff_free69]

BUT On the other hand , when it comes to bass i am leary of sending in a bunch of boys to do a man's job. So for a more conventional approach I'd stick with a 15" on the bottom in a 3-4 cuft cab (Eminence Kappalite 3015LFhas been recommended to me).
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=290-598

i just realized i put in the wrong speaker model for the 15 - the above quote has the right one and url. I was on the verge of buying this, but recently rediscovered an old EV-15B sitting in my basement in good shape. So far it has held up, but if it gives up the ghost I will get the Kappa15. The EV actually sounds great even though it is down 3db at 60Hz. The Kappa15's f3 would be better at 50Hz, with double the Xmax.

A decent alternative if you're looking to downsize to 2 smaller cabinets would be a couple of these SVT type of 10's for $60 each
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...90-471&scqty=1