A New Rant about Beryllium...

[darrenk]

So… I've been reading all of these threads about the Beryllium diaphragm stuff, and for some relatively inexplicable reason, felt my blood pressure rising disproportionately to the topic at hand. While I too consider myself a champion for truth, there was something about Mowry's posts that troubled me. I kept clicking the reply button, but then being a former moderator, realized the futility of that. Yes, I know this post will likely re-ignite the flame, but hopefully it will not go down quite the same road. The point here isn't about Beryllium or lack thereof, it's more about politeness and some general words of wisdom. If it does go down the same road as the other thread, I'll just delete it, or figure out a way to have it deleted.

With that being said, let me dive into it…

After some soul searching, I realized that from my perspective as somewhat of an industry insider, I found that this whole crusade by Mowry just didn't sit right with me. As I tried to figure out what my problem was with it, I realized that it offends me as being simply poor etiquette and in violation of an unspoken rule in the audio world: "Sing the merits of your own products as much as you want, but don't do it by putting down someone else's products." Pretty much just like general socializing and personal skills that are learned in elementary school. You don't put someone else down to make yourself look better-- it's just poor taste, and a good way to make enemies. In other words, people need to just mind their own business. To me, Mowry's post violates a gentlemanly rule that has been honored since the dawn of the hi-fi industry.

Yeah, I get the whole "truth in advertising" quest, but there should be some class and dignity to the approach to it, and it shouldn't be done by creating a public spectacle out of things. In this small world of audio, everyone is bringing something to the party, and even if they goof or make a mistake, they're still bringing some life to what could easily be a dying industry. I mean-- Tear down Usher? OK, they stop selling finished speaker systems, then they stop selling raw drivers, and then you've lost an offering to the community as a whole. Yayy…! Or, maybe they'll start buying Mowry's Beryllium. Hmm… is that how it works? I know I would never buy something from someone who publicly made a spectacle about my products, even if it was my mistake. If Usher ends up buying his stuff, I suspect it's because they essentially feel that they've been blackmailed into it.

I'm not going to deny that I perhaps have a biased opinion. I know some of the Usher guys, and have had the pleasure of having dinner with them and hanging out with them on numerous occasions. Yeah, I can see where some would take issue with some of their product offerings, but on the other hand, knowing their side of the story, I can understand where they are coming from. You know, even a "large" company like Usher is just a small group of audio nuts like most other companies in this business. It's the same the world round. So, people shouldn't be surprised about delayed email responses, difficulty in figuring out how to respond to this Beryllium issue, or even the Joe D. issue. If you or I or a group of DIYers were running a company and trying to make headway in the audio world, we might expect to run into similar challenges sooner or later. Even if you don't agree 100% with Usher, they still deserve some respect for their contributions to the audio world.

Bottom line is as a member or hobbyist in the world of high end audio, we have to recognize that this whole market is its own little world, and in the end, no one will be hurt by poor manners other than ourselves. For better or worse, we need to support each other.

Just needed to vent a bit... take care all!

Darren

[jclin4]

Well said Darren. Your thoughts are not at all out of place here. Glad you posted them.

[envisionelec]

Well put and noted. I still have a lot to learn....

[neildavis]

While I too consider myself a champion for truth, there was something about Mowry's posts that troubled me...

I would not have had any trouble at all with Mowry's post if it were titled "The Truth about Beryllium diaphragms, and Why You Should Buy Them From My Company Instead". I like the investigation he did, and I don't have a problem with faulting TB and Usher for false claims--that's a good service to those of us who buy drivers and want this truth. However, the paper wasn't about just the facts of Be diaphragm materials--it was also a self-serving pitch of his own products. Putting the two together in the same paper was a journalistic mistake, because the sales pitch undermines the technology discussion. If he had clearly stated both themes in his title it would have been more honest and easier to swallow.

Mowry presents some very useful information, and I'm grateful that he posted this information. I was actually considering buying the TB Be tweeter a while back just to try it out, but an earlier posting by Mowry back in December helped me understand that this wasn't some materials breakthrough. So he saved me some money. And I've got the Usher "Beryllium" CD and I listened to the speakers at RMAF, so the technical part of his discussion is good information that I appreciate.

But I also found the article and follow-up discussion offensive, in that it ended up feeling like a crusade rather than a technical paper. Also, some of the subsequent posts came across as "personal" attacks. It could have been a much better written article and could have been discussed more professionally...

[DougP]

Rule number one for selling anything is "Don't bad mouth the competition, explain why your product is better".

Doug

[dlneubec]

I know the subject line is beryllium, but my guess is that you intended this to a bit wider audience. If not, then I think it should be so applied.

There is far too much tearing down of others to make oneself look better, on the internet as a whole, and very much so in DIY audio. People behave in ways most of us would not dream of or tolerate in our personal or professional lives. It is very easy to get caught up in that. I know I have been guilty of it.

I believe it stifles posting for fear of be attacked for ones views. There are ways to express a contrary view without tearing someone else down. Unfortunately, most of us have just had to learn to not take the bait and stay out of the flame wars.

[darrenk]

I know the subject line is beryllium, but my guess is that you intended this to a bit wider audience. If not, then I think it should be so applied.

Quite right Dan, didn't really mean to post under so specific of a title. Just kind of came out. Tried to fix it, but don't know if it can be changed on the main message index... After all, I suppose my message applies to just about every aspect of this hobby...

See you at DIY Dayton, I presume!

Darren

[brianpowers27]

Whether or not we like to admit it, the world of hi-fi 2 channel and general hi-fi sound isn't growing. In fact, the market is aging. There still is a hardcore following (people like us on the forum), but to most other people it is beaten by a low cost ipod dock.

When negative articles come from insiders like this it creates disillusionment toward the audio market as a whole. This will likely shrink the market causing an overall net drop in sales. This paper is somewhat analogous to the saying "win the battle, lose the war".

Bottom line is as a member or hobbyist in the world of high end audio, we have to recognize that this whole market is its own little world, and in the end, no one will be hurt by poor manners other than ourselves. For better or worse, we need to support each other.

If industry insiders like Mowry can't find ways to make their super high end products marketable to the consumer they will lose. Typically the product leaders do not need to put down the competitor since they are on top. This is the same type of tactic that you see in politics from the runner up or the 2nd best in any industry.

It really is time for this industry to come together and offer something toward a new audience.

[dlneubec]

I'm looking forward to it!

[Jeff B.]

Thank you , Darren. You are certainly not alone in your perceptions here. I did not post my thoughts on the matter until now, and I will keep it brief, but I had tremendous heartburn over the method of Mr. Mowry's approach to this matter:

The threats to Usher regarding "their problem" and what he was going to do if they didn't respond to his threats......

The posting of it on a public forum, and one I might add, of a retailer of Usher products. I am certain this was not missed by Mr. Mowry, and was the very reason he posted it here......

The continual barrage of posts on the topic no matter what was stated by anyone......

The unethical use of John Krutke's data without permission, and then defending this behavior as being fine in Thailand, as if that somehow makes it ethical......

Accusing people who questioned his motives or defended Usherss products as "working for Usher".....

These are just the points I recall off the top of my head. All of which team up together to point a big finger back at Mr. Mowry that it is certainly fair to question his motives and ethics in this matter. I was at a loss at those who seemed to praise him for what he was doing. What he was doing was low-brow and had not place here, and these methods when combined should never be defended. I have never met Mr. Mowry before, but based on that thread alone, and the behavior I observed, have very little respect for what I see here.

Jeff B.

[MSaturn]

I've been trying to bring up the topic of marketing this whole time, and I'll say this simply:

Most of you have seen me berate Morel or Dynaudio or some other company, and my reasons are simple: cost is high and performance is comparitively low. These are conclusions that anyone could make after looking at a few graphs or measurements. Whether or not a person wants to acknowledge these things is up to them, but I believe measurements are absolutely essential to the basis of a good loudspeaker system. What's the point in building the things if we're only doing what some completely uneducated person could do?

Now, marketing is different, and is exactly the reason Bose avoids publishing graphs - because they look like crap. The general public does not want numbers and science, they want an emotional or practical appeal - it's "for your lifestyle" and "is high performance." The thought basically ends after that. I could likely paint a 50 cent buyout driver in an enclosure white, call it bose, and make $300 on it.

This is the same general principle Usher's following with their "beryllium" drivers. Beryllium is exotic and rare, and not frequently used. Therefore, it piques the interest of the consumer who reads about it. Now, even if the beryllium content is low, Usher is producing a very high quality loudspeaker. This can be easily proven with measurements, converse to what I stated above about other companies. They are not claiming their drivers are PURE beryllium. Their "marketing deception" is low, and mostly irrelevant.

People get after marketers all the time, and claim we're out to get the consumer. Clearly, some of us are. I am not, and most people I know in my field are not. There's a happy medium that any marketer - or person - must reach when describing their product, or a competitor's.

All aspects of effect must be analyzed. Mr. Mowry is denying outright that Usher's claims could NOT be harmful. What if they aren't?

I also believe in truth in advertising. But selective forgetting of facts - and selective reading - are playing heavily into this argument.

We would be nothing without our measurements and analyses. I look at these things first, and make my decisions after that. My ultimate goal is performance, not cost or badging, and I believe most of us feel the same way.

[Andy_G]

next time you buy your 'other' a diamond ring..

please don't tell them its only 0.1% diamond... by weight !

[Pete Schumacher ®]

next time you buy your 'other' a diamond ring..

please don't tell them its only 0.1% diamond... by weight !

You could have made a better analogy Andy, since diamonds are not rare and certainly way overpriced. Heck, man made diamonds can be of far greater purity than "natural" ones and far more uniform as well. Regardless, the fact that a near monopoly controls diamond distribution is the only reason they are that expensive.

A better analogy might have been to not tell the missus that the lead ring on her finger is 18K gold plated.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

I have completely ignored that thread for quite a while now. I saw the obvious advertisement for what it was. It's all hype to me, including pure beryllium domes. Whoop deddoo. No beryllium dome can make a bad motor design into a good tweeter. And I seriously doubt that a toxic exotic like Be could improve the performance of the RS28 in any meaningful way.

There is one good thing to come from that "study" of Be in the industry. I'll now be sure to avoid any use of Be in the future. Don't want to contribute to an industry that creates toxic dust.

It's always nice to see Dr. K poke his stethoscope into the site though!!

[Jeff B.]

next time you buy your 'other' a diamond ring..

please don't tell them its only 0.1% diamond... by weight !

I made no reference to whether Usher is right or wrong, only that I feel Mr. Mowry's methods were very unprofessional, and his motives were thinly veiled.

[brianpowers27]

I think it speaks volumes to the industry that they need to fight over Berrylium. We are in a down market, we could be innovating in ways that people appreciate instead of this...

[depthsounder]

You could have made a better analogy Andy, since diamonds are not rare and certainly way overpriced. Heck, man made diamonds can be of far greater purity than "natural" ones and far more uniform as well. Regardless, the fact that a near monopoly controls diamond distribution is the only reason they are that expensive.

Well, YOU try telling my wife that...

Fought that battle already, the de Beers brainwashing is too strong.

-David

[maynardg]

I made no reference to whether Usher is right or wrong, only that I feel Mr. Mowry's methods were very unprofessional, and his motives were thinly veiled.

Thinly veiled? Utterly transparent.

The other frustration I have on the board lately is the increasing frequency with which posters dismiss the honest listening experience of others through simple contradiction or a blanket assertion of some epistemological truth.

Lighten up. It's only a hobby. So, I find myself spending time on other boards. A shame.

[dbe]

Bottom line is as a member or hobbyist in the world of high end audio, we have to recognize that this whole market is its own little world, and in the end, no one will be hurt by poor manners other than ourselves. For better or worse, we need to support each other.

Just needed to vent a bit... take care all!

Darren

As always you present the facts and the realities very well.

I agree with everything that you said and , I think, some things that were unsaid, but implied.

As a professional, as well as a hobbyist, I have never "pushed" my products here for two reasons: (1) they do not have any general appeal here; (2) to do so would just be rude and self serving. I frequent this forum because I have a lot of friends here and because I think I have some experiences that can be beneficial to some of the newer hobbyists. I have an adage that is shown to be correct more often than not: An expert is someone that has made 10,000 errors in one particular field of endeavor. Helping someone to avoid one of these is what is behind most of the Old Dudes that post here, I reckon.

As to the issue of product competition: strong, honest competition breeds good business for all involved. I suppose Mr. Mowry just shot himself in the foot. I hope so.

The general thrust of your "rant" is one that I feel very strongly about. Courtesy and manners are what make places fun to share ideas and what enable people to have meaningful discussions. Unfortunately I see an increasing level of discourtesy and ill manners here. There are those that go out of their way to diss anyone or anything that they do not agree with for no good reason. I wish you were still the moderator here. You did a great job.

Be well, Darren.

Dave

[joe7414]

A point not often bought up , but Beryllium is V toxic , Beryllium workers do not live long, Beryllium could make your pc go much faster , reduce the thd of your amp, and make your car go quicker , but it is to toxic for domestic use. rf engeners do die of Berylliosis, probable not a good to bring that to the audio industry.


ps anybody know the damping property's of Asbestos?????????????????