Cheaper Vifa DQ25 Tweeter Better Than D25AG35

[jimofoakcreek]

I've been seing the new cheap Vifa DQ25SC16 alum neo tweeter being used in many projects lately.

Yet the older and more expensive Vifa D25AG35 alum tweeter seems to be out of fashion completely.

Does the DQ25 perform that much better than the D25AG35? Or is it because the DQ25 is so inexspensive?

[jkim]

To be qualified as a good dome tweeter, it must have low nonlinear distortion between 1.5 k - 3 kHz, low linear distortion between 2 k - 10 kHz, and high enough sensitivity to work with in many applications. The Vifa DQ satisfies these qualities at only $16. We don't have test results for the D25AG obtained under the same condition as the DQ25 since Zaph did not test the D25AG. But I don't think the D25AG is any better than the DQ25 in the above aspects. Zaph mated the DQ25 with all his designs using his new driver. This means a lot. If there had been any better tweeter he could use under $30, he would definitely have done so. He once mentioned he would not miss the venerable Vifa D26NC55 because of the DQ25SC he found.

- jAy

[HareBrained]

I've been seing the new cheap Vifa DQ25SC16 alum neo tweeter being used in many projects lately.

Yet the older and more expensive Vifa D25AG35 alum tweeter seems to be out of fashion completely.

Does the DQ25 perform that much better than the D25AG35? Or is it because the DQ25 is so inexspensive?

I can't speak to the D25. I haven't used it and I don't know if I've ever heard it.

I have been listening to the DQ25 for over 6 months in my MTM that used the MCM 55-3853 4" cast frame woofer. The DQ25 doesn't have any brightness or harshness typically found in cheap metal domes. Distortion is very low and can be crossed quite low (Zaph's ZA5 series uses it below 2000Hz). It essentially breaks all the rules normally applied to inexpensive neo tweeters. Somewhat more than the sum of it's parts. Also, it's size is very easy to work with for MTM's or small/slim enclosures. I wouldn't hesitate to use it with woofers, for lack of a better classification, that cost up to $100 and maybe higher. IMO, to noticeably beat it's performance, you're looking at spending at least $50 (SB29).

[Paul Carmody]

The D25 is pretty long in the tooth. However, it's had quite the run, being featured in many uber-hi-fi commercial speakers. When used gently (don't cross it below 2 KHz, despite the low Fs) and with a minimum of parts, I think it sounds quite good; pretty smooth, really. It can extract a lot of detail out of a recording without sounding harsh. (I did do distortion measurements of it--and the DQ25, but I can't find one of them right now, so it's not fair to only post one)

The DQ25 is a really good bargain for the price, however I've been working with it a lot lately and while it is heads-and-shoulders above, say the TB 25-1719, I find that little bit of wiggle way up at the top end brings it down a notch for me. I have a design going right now where I'm swapping between the Dayton ND28F and the Vifa DQ25. THe XOs are extremely similar, both crossed at 2 KHz, just a few adjustments for impedance and sensitivity. I've been going between the two all summer, but I keep coming back to the Dayton. I find it less "aggressive," for lack of a better term. In other words, I feel when listening to music on the DQ25 that the attacks of instruments all have a similar dynamic... like a compressor. Whereas the Dayton seems to show more difference between "loud" and "soft" attacks.

What does all this mean? Well, when the attacks are all about the same volume, the soundstage takes on sort of a "wall of sound" in front of you--whereas if the attacks vary in volume, our ears interpret these differences as placement and depth in the soundstage. OK, I haven't done any scientific tests to prove this, but "compressed treble" effect is something I have noticed for years, at least as far back as my recording studio classes in college. So it's my theory and I'm standing behind it.

[critofur]

Paul,
Have you listened to those Audax tweeters I sent you yet? Do you have some of these: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8355 ?

I'd be happy to give (mail) you a pair if you don't, to add to your Dayton/Vifa comparison mentioned above?

I'm very curious about theset tweeters: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8664

But, their price seems high to me, and, a friend of mine has run into some QC issues with SB tweeters when he bought a case of 50 or so.

[Paul Carmody]

Paul,
Have you listened to those Audax tweeters I sent you yet? Do you have some of these: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8355 ?

I'd be happy to give (mail) you a pair if you don't, to add to your Dayton/Vifa comparison mentioned above?

I'm very curious about theset tweeters: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/pro...oducts_id=8664

But, their price seems high to me, and, a friend of mine has run into some QC issues with SB tweeters when he bought a case of 50 or so.

Actually, I was just working on a project using those Audax TM020J3 before my summer was sucked up with the repairs on my new house. However, I DID do Harmonic Distortion sweeps of it as well. I should really post my slew of tweeter tests.

The Vifa BC25SC might be nice, but I'm one of those cowards who shies away from non-circular tweeter flanges. Has anyone done distortion testing of them yet?

And the SB thing... yeah, I dunno. That's a lot of money for a sort of cheap-looking tweeter. It needs to sound really good for that price point... because for that money I can get an XT25 (regular or neo) and be happy for the rest of my life.

[LouC]

The D25 is pretty long in the tooth. However, it's had quite the run, being featured in many uber-hi-fi commercial speakers. When used gently (don't cross it below 2 KHz, despite the low Fs) and with a minimum of parts, I think it sounds quite good; pretty smooth, really. It can extract a lot of detail out of a recording without sounding harsh... So it's my theory and I'm standing behind it.

Paul, are you sure you want to be an independent thinker? In audio?

As a fellow heretic, I think the D25 is still a top notch tweeter. (IMO it can still hold it's own with the Seas 1" TDxxx tweeters). Smooth sounding, great detail, but it's a big OLD tweeter But there's no denying the flexibility of the small neo drivers. (At $13, I'll try a pair!)

Projects & drivers tend to run in "me too", latest & greatest, cycles. Once a driver has been canonized, there is a rush to use it. But the really good drivers seem to hang on. (ScanSpeak 18Ws are still out there) My personal "uber" speakers will include old 5" Audax carbon fiber mids (if I ever get around to building them...)

[augerpro]

And the SB thing... yeah, I dunno. That's a lot of money for a sort of cheap-looking tweeter. It needs to sound really good for that price point... because for that money I can get an XT25 (regular or neo) and be happy for the rest of my life.

I'm betting the SB29 has translated to neo better than the XT25 did. To get the low end capability (excursion and HD, not so much response) in <3" faceplate is pretty special and worth investigating. Then again I'm not a huge fan of the XT25 anyway. I have some in my Rocket 760's and they just don't seem to create as much spaciousness as other tweeter I've used. The SB29 may be the same due to it being a RR too though...

[DDF]

I used the D25 when it first came out, for about 2 years. To me, it sound impressive at first but I found it fatiguing over time and moved back to a high quality soft dome.

It wasn't a gear issue, I never get the fatique with headphones or other tweeters.

DLR posted some good mods for the driver on his web site that is supposed to help.

I prefered the sound of the D26NC and it measured better too.

[jonasz]

And the SB thing... yeah, I dunno. That's a lot of money for a sort of cheap-looking tweeter. It needs to sound really good for that price point... because for that money I can get an XT25 (regular or neo) and be happy for the rest of my life.

XT25 is now down to $37 and the neo-version to $26, kind of hard to beat!

[tom_s]

Paul,

I'm curious to see the differences between the DQ25 (that I just ordered this morning) and the BC25SC that I currently have. PM me and I'll send a pair of the BCs your way, along with a routing template. That template along with a pattern cutting bit makes pretty quick work of it! You can take some measurements and maybe use them in an upcoming design.

Tom

[Paul Carmody]

XT25 is now down to $37 and the neo-version to $26, kind of hard to beat!

I just saw that! Now THAT's a competitive price! I'll definitely be using the XT25 neo soon, then. I absolutely loved it in Wolf's little Xenums. Plus, at $37 that makes me feel a little freer to use the normal-size XT25 in another design.