Xover for B&C DE10-8 1" Mylar Horn Driver?

[ken257]

I am planning on using these two drivers to make a PA speaker that has a smoother sound then most PA systems, I do not like ear bleeding screamers that are typical. They will be used at church and for a choir at college. In between uses they will live in my workshop (2 car garage) to provide sound.

B&C DE10-8 1" Mylar Horn Driver

Selenium 12WS600 12" 600W Woofer

The problem I am having is finding parameters for the horn so that I can make a crossover. I use Basebox Pro and Xover Pro but there are no parameters for horn drivers in the database and none that I can see from Parts Express or the manufacturer. The recommended crossover for the horn is 2.56k at 12db. Can anybody point me in the right direction? I will test the system with an active crossover first to find the best way to blend the drivers but I do want to build crossovers for them because it's less gear to transport.

[rudyjakubin]

Dang nice tweeter with the Pyle PH612 horn.
I'm listening to them now.
Read my review;
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=294-600
You could model that woofer in the PE Trap cabs to see if they'll work;
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...TOKEN=99468074
I got the crossover at AudioKarma;
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=150939
Ask Zilch over there about that woofer.

[hoxuanduc]

Rudy,

When you changed to the B&C DE10-8, did you keep the same cross over that was designed for the Selenium D220Ti? There are a lot of variations on that thread. I believe right now they're working on one for the QSC wave guide as well.

As the going mantra, when you change drivers (or anything), must redesign the crossover, it's very fascinating that they have a generic X-O that pretty much work with any woofer!

What are your impressions of the sound compared to other speakers you have built? Strength, weakness?

Thanks,


Duc

[billfitzmaurice]

I am planning on using these two drivers to make a PA speaker that has a smoother sound then most PA systems, I do not like ear bleeding screamers that are typical. They will be used at church and for a choir at college. In between uses they will live in my workshop (2 car garage) to provide sound.

B&C DE10-8 1" Mylar Horn Driver

Selenium 12WS600 12" 600W Woofer

The DE10 is a nice driver, but it won't go low enough to mate with a twelve. Cross from a twelve no higher than 1.5kHz to either a midrange or to a horn and driver capable of going that low. One reason most lower end PA tops sound bad is because they don't cross over low enough from the woofer.

[rudyjakubin]

Rudy,

When you changed to the B&C DE10-8, did you keep the same cross over that was designed for the Selenium D220Ti? There are a lot of variations on that thread. I believe right now they're working on one for the QSC wave guide as well.

As the going mantra, when you change drivers (or anything), must redesign the crossover, it's very fascinating that they have a generic X-O that pretty much work with any woofer!

What are your impressions of the sound compared to other speakers you have built? Strength, weakness?

Thanks,
Duc

Yes, I kept the same tweeter values except resistors for the sensitivity levels. I've played with that crossover on various PA Speakers - Crate 4x12's, Hartke 4x10's, Behringer 10 " 2-ways and now the PE trap boxes. With these tweeters - Selenium D210's, D220's , DH200E's and Goldwood Piezo mid/tweets - # 270-011.
Also used a bi-amp active crossover and equalizer.
I never liked passive crossovers on PA drivers until I tried Jackgiffs.
That's why I dove in as soon as PE came out with the trap boxes. Also, I was dieing to try them C. Rex drivers. I just had that gut feeling they would sound nice and they didn't disappoint.
The trouble with Titanium domes were that they were a little bit too edgy for me. Reading threads from various web sites other people had the same impression.
So I tried the mylars and that was what I was looking for.
The Piezo's sounded nice but couldn't cross that low (3200 hz.), on the digital end they sounded the best at 6k.

Are the Rexii 102 db @1 watt - YEP - I got them playing on my Logitech computer monitor amps running off a wall-wart power supply and they get quite loud. Movies are a blast to hear out of them. It got me to rearrange my man-cave.
Only changed the woofer values and used zoebels.
The Rexii are 16 ohm so the L1 x 2 and C1 /2 was what I used...

I'm hoping tomorrow to have them back on the Behringer A500's...
That's the rearranging part...

[rudyjakubin]

The DE10 is a nice driver, but it won't go low enough to mate with a twelve. Cross from a twelve no higher than 1.5kHz to either a midrange or to a horn and driver capable of going that low. One reason most lower end PA tops sound bad is because they don't cross over low enough from the woofer.

Hi Bill,
The DE10's cross over at 3200 hz and the 12's at 1200....

[hoxuanduc]

Rudy,

Thanks for your response. Your various experiments give me the confidence to try. Having the same crossover for various woofers made me nervous...

I'm thinking about the Eminence Beta 12 in a sealed cabinet with a helper woofer below ~100Hz.

That JackGiff design must be some thing special!!!

Thanks again!

Duc

[billfitzmaurice]

Hi Bill,
The DE10's cross over at 3200 hz and the 12's at 1200....

The OP seems to be wanting to do a 2-way.

[rudyjakubin]

The OP seems to be wanting to do a 2-way.

Yep that's what Zilch is playing with and testing (taking readings) at Audiokarma.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...50939&page=582
Here at post 582 is a graph where he's testing a Dayton Classic 12" with a DE250/QSC horn...
He's having a dickens of a time taming that cone breakup..
I may have a bit in my setup since the breakup on the Rexii is also at 2khz.
but I don't hear it. I played piano pieces all afternoon the other day when the weather was really bad and I didn't hear dip or peak when they ran up and down the scales. Eventually I'll have a test rig.
The DE10 is rated at 1500 hz with a 2nd order crossover at 2500 hz and since Jack crosses at 3200hz 2nd order it just might be OK. I had the DE10 in the Hartkes cranked to bleed level and the cymbals were still crystal clear.

[rudyjakubin]

Rudy,

Thanks for your response. Your various experiments give me the confidence to try. Having the same crossover for various woofers made me nervous...

I'm thinking about the Eminence Beta 12 in a sealed cabinet with a helper woofer below ~100Hz.

That JackGiff design must be some thing special!!!

Thanks again!

Duc

Nervous? Heck I twisted a lot of crossover when Pete Schumacher was designing a dozen or two for my earlier experiments.
The Beta 12 (98 db !) also has that breakup at 2 khz but maybe a zoebel will help tame it some since the impedence curve at that point is way above the 12 db point.
My speakers are also sealed and running with a sub, but now I want a better sub.

[rudyjakubin]

Rudy,

What are your impressions of the sound compared to other speakers you have built? Strength, weakness?

Thanks,


Duc

Coming off of aluminum domes like the DA and RS series of Dayton drivers the paper cone midbass drivers seem to have a voice or characteristic of their own.
I have tried the Dayton Classic series along with the above drivers and never cared for them much. I still have 4 10 inchers and I'm waiting for the Zilchster too see what he comes up with crossover wise.
The trap cabs are pretty cheap and already cut, you can't beat that.

The bottom line for me is if they sound good and I like them then I like them...
Hey - at 102 db per watt whats not to like

[ken257]

The DE10 is a nice driver, but it won't go low enough to mate with a twelve. Cross from a twelve no higher than 1.5kHz to either a midrange or to a horn and driver capable of going that low. One reason most lower end PA tops sound bad is because they don't cross over low enough from the woofer.

I have been thinking the same thing this afternoon and am considering the B&C 10HPL64 10" Neodymium Woofer for a couple of reasons. First being that it would be stretching the 12" driver top end to much and second a smaller lighter set of speakers would be better as these will need to be transported and most of the time set up about as high as I can get them which is bad for base anyway. The program material will be mostly vocal/piano and a few acoustic instruments on occasion. Heavy bass is not needed for the main application of these speakers but I may also make a sub in addition for the occasions where a little kick is desired.

Many thanks to everyone for all the great information!

[rudyjakubin]

I have been thinking the same thing this afternoon and am considering the B&C 10HPL64 10" Neodymium Woofer for a couple of reasons. First being that it would be stretching the 12" driver top end to much and second a smaller lighter set of speakers would be better as these will need to be transported and most of the time set up about as high as I can get them which is bad for base anyway. The program material will be mostly vocal/piano and a few acoustic instruments on occasion. Heavy bass is not needed for the main application of these speakers but I may also make a sub in addition for the occasions where a little kick is desired.

Many thanks to everyone for all the great information!

Great choice. I saved the data for future use. It calls for a 1.3 cu. ft. box and the PE traps are 1.6 cu. ft. to 2.0 cu. ft.
Counting for basket and horn displacement it could work for a nice rolloff around 100 hz. which would mate with a sub very well.
98.5 db from a ten incher - 0.5 Le and a flat frequency response - weeee!

[ken257]

I think that pretty much settles it. Unless someone sees a flaw that I am overlooking I will go with

2 - B&C 10HPL64 10" Neodymium Woofer

2 - B&C DE10-8 1" Mylar Horn Driver

2 - Selenium ADM25-25 Horn Adapter

2 - Selenium HC23-25 1" Exponential Horn 100x40 1-3/8"-18 TPI


The reason I want to try this horn is because I need good horizontal dispersion but want to minimize reflections off of the ceiling when set up at church. It is a large square shaped room with high ceilings. The acoustics are poor with resonant frequency problems that cause feedback and a lot of echo. I use a Behringer FBQ2496 Feedback Destroyer Pro to help along with an EQ to tame the problem areas and get a decent sound. An acoustic treatment is needed but in a church there is a delicate balance between ascetics/practicality and of course money.

I do have an electronic crossover to use with these until I determine the best way to blend the drivers, then I will use that information to start working on a crossover for them.

I am going to make my own cabs for these. The back will have two different angles because these could also serve as monitors a couple times a year. Added flexibility is always a good thing.

[billfitzmaurice]

I have been thinking the same thing this afternoon and am considering the B&C 10HPL64 10" Neodymium Woofer for a couple of reasons.

A direct radiating ten won't go higher than 2kHz without encountering beaming issues and/or break up, so you're still going to need something that can go to 2lHz or lower.

The reason I want to try this horn is because I need good horizontal dispersion but want to minimize reflections off of the ceiling when set up at church.

It's got at least twice the vertical dispersion required to control early reflections. The only solution to that problem is a vertical HF horn array, which can give vertical pattern control down in the 15-20 degree range.

[ken257]

OK, I revised the drivers again sticking with the theme of easy portability. This combination seems to have been used by a few already with good results.

B&C 8PS21 8" Woofer

B&C DE10-8 1" Mylar Horn Driver

B&C ME10 1" Hyperbolic Cosine Horn

It should still have enough bass for the application plus like I said above I will make a sub for the rare occasion when it will be needed. I really like the small cabinet size that this combo will have.

From the description it looks like the 8" driver will go high enough to work. I could change the horn driver to something else that will go lower but I do not want a harsh sound that has a bite to it or causes fatigue like the majority of PA speakers. High volumes are not required either, just a medium volume with good sound quality.

[hoxuanduc]

The bottom line for me is if they sound good and I like them then I like them...
Hey - at 102 db per watt whats not to like

Yup,

I'm really hooked on high efficiency Pro Sound drivers now after building the Pi 2 with Alpha 10. Turn 'em up and the living room transforms into a Jazz club just like that!!!

Duc

[ken257]

I am going with the parts in my last post. I think it will make for a super ultra portable system. There are also many possibilities for a small setup like ths to be permanently mounted. It should prove to be a flexible design.

I do want to add a sub. I was looking at two

Eminence Lab12 Generation II 12" Subwoofer

Eminence Kappa Pro-15LF-2 15"

Of the two I am leaning towards the Lab12 because it looks like it will work in a smaller box. I want to stay with the theme of easy portability but do it with great sound.

I have the amps that I need to get everything going but will eventually get a more powerful amp then I have now for the sub, most likely another QSC. I also have a stereo 3 way electronic crossover and a mixer so once I finalize on the speakers I will be all set.

[Phil_RC_1]

OK, I revised the drivers again sticking with the theme of easy portability. This combination seems to have been used by a few already with good results.

B&C 8PS21 8" Woofer

B&C DE10-8 1" Mylar Horn Driver

B&C ME10 1" Hyperbolic Cosine Horn

It should still have enough bass for the application plus like I said above I will make a sub for the rare occasion when it will be needed. I really like the small cabinet size that this combo will have.

From the description it looks like the 8" driver will go high enough to work. I could change the horn driver to something else that will go lower but I do not want a harsh sound that has a bite to it or causes fatigue like the majority of PA speakers. High volumes are not required either, just a medium volume with good sound quality.

Here's a couple links you maybe interested in. Scroll down to the ME10 & DE10 tests. The HD looks good, the FR looks smooth but I wouldn't use the ewave xover with it. It deserves its own. Also8"er's & 8PS21.

It would be more $$ but the 8PS21 has 94dB sens, you could use 2 to mate better with the horns sens. That would maximize the horns sens without having to pad very much. Maybe an MTM to help control vertical dispersion.

[billfitzmaurice]

Eminence Lab12 Generation II 12" Subwoofer

Eminence Kappa Pro-15LF-2 15"

Have you modeled them? Compared both SPL and maximum output? And taken into consideration the low frequency limit required for your application? Neither is worth using IMO, but if either meets your needs go for it. Just be sure to know exactly what your needs really are.