To Sub, or Not To Sub

[JarOfSonicMen]

OK, hypothetical question:

At what point (if any) does adding a sub become superfluous or stupid?

Obviously, if I were building a set of full-up Statements then I wouldn't really consider it much.

So I'm finishing a set of Tritrix now (actually 2 sets) and was thinking about building a set of Curt's new Aviatrix, including one turned sideways built into a TV stand (big living room).

So with a set of 7 TL speakers for my home theater...is contemplating a sub necessary? I realize I won't know until I am done and try it out, just wondering if there was a theoretical consensus. I guess Curt's got the only set of Aviatrix for now, but when do you think a sub is helpful?

[nikbrewer]

well, this is not based on any bases but my opinion. However, in home theater, and any thing with low frequencies, there is no replacement for displacment. You can not expect a 5.25 or 6.5" woofer to move as much air as a 10 - 18" sub woofer. I wouls say for music listening, there are speakers that can go full range, but to do good home theater, there is no replacement for a sub, since so many movies have sound tracks that even dip in the the teens as far as hertz.

[johnnyrichards]

+1 to what Nik said. Also, everything he said applies to music as well.

[philiparcario]

multiple subs or subwoofer and woofers are good. I have 3 a pair of nht1259's and a dayton rss390hf-f. the nht's run from 45/50hz to 100hz the dayton from 18hz to 45/50 hz. my mains can do 55hz with ease but I hi pass them at 100hz. (so sub sub 18 to 50 ) (sub/woofer 50 to 100) (mains 100 to 20k)


you would find crossing the speakers you have from 60 hz and up or 80hz and up or even 100hz and up will greatly improve the midrange clarity. Ps I use Focal 7w cones in a mtm for my mains they are highly regard cones and they sound better hi-passed at 100hz in my setup then 80hz or 60 hz. surprised me I thought they would be better at 80hz.

[Paul O]

Every sound system benefits from subs, and you haven't lived until you have experienced 15" or 18" subs.

[Dirk]

Normally, I do everything I can to qualify my statements, and insert enough weasel words to leave myself an out. However, I will state this adamantly:

For home theater, unless you have multiple outboard amps, you are ALWAYS better off running your speakers as small and using subs. It's mainly a matter of two things:

1. Your amp will not be able to put out the power required to get all 5 or 6 speakers hopping. Remember that there's also an LFE track to movies. If you do not have subs, this LFE gets mixed into the left & right. So that's up to an extra +10dB of power your mains need to be cope with. When the action film gets rocking, your amp will clip. If you have large 100W+ amps on your receiver's pre-outs, things change somewhat. However that does not alter the fact that...

2. It's really hard to get good bass in a room, especially if a number of the speakers are up against the wall. You're better off using a sub or two (even small ones), placed strategically to get the best bass.

There are more reasons, but those are the biggies.

[Fairlane64]

I just have to throw my 2 cents in too, even on 2 channel setups I've been running dual subs for many years. I'm not a bass freak by any means, but it's amazing what a pair of well integrated subs will do, even with a pair of full range towers with decent woofers.

I think one of the biggest reasons I use them is because it gives you the flexibility to position your mains where they sound / image the best. You can then work with your subs to fine tune the bass response for the room without having to compromise the positioning of the main speakers. I like running dual subs instead of a single because it's easier to integrate them into a room and you have less localization effects.

[markparsons]

I suppose it depends on what type of music you listen to and what your priorities are. I like to listen to pipe organ music, Sunn O))), and hard Techno and I don't want to miss anything. So one of my systems has two subs using the 18" Maelstrom driver and two passive radiators in boxes with an internal volume of 9 cubic feet driven by Face Audio pro amps. These subs go down to 16 Hz with authority. Lots of fun!

[john trials]

My first DIY speaker build was a set of Tritrix TLs. I really like them. I hadn't planned on getting carried away with this hobby, but I couldn't stop building. I used some leftover MDF to build a sub...RSS315 (12") with SA240. When I'm not using my sub, my Tritrix TLs really seem to lack bass.

A subwoofer is really nice (and I had doubts before building mine). My only regret is that this sub may be too small (yeah, it's a sickness)...I am having an urge to make a Tuba HT sub...but I really don't have the room. You say you have a big living room. Build a BIG sub. You will not regret it. So my answer to your question: At what point (if any) does adding a sub become superfluous or stupid? Never.

I also have Statements, and I agree with you: no sub needed with those (okay...maybe for HT, a sub would be nice...mine are strictly for music right now).

[gordoncalder]

OK, hypothetical question:

At what point (if any) does adding a sub become superfluous or stupid?

Obviously, if I were building a set of full-up Statements then I wouldn't really consider it much.

So I'm finishing a set of Tritrix now (actually 2 sets) and was thinking about building a set of Curt's new Aviatrix, including one turned sideways built into a TV stand (big living room).

So with a set of 7 TL speakers for my home theater...is contemplating a sub necessary? I realize I won't know until I am done and try it out, just wondering if there was a theoretical consensus. I guess Curt's got the only set of Aviatrix for now, but when do you think a sub is helpful?

I can't argue with the other posters, since this is really about personal preferences, but just to represent a non-sub user perspective...depending on the drivers/design you choose, you can get pretty satisfying bass from a 2-way or 2.5-way (or 3-way) with 6-8 inch drivers. But of course it comes down to what you consider satisfying, how big your room is, how loud you listen.. For me, I think 90dB at 2m is really loud, and bass in the low-30's makes things shake. I really wouldn't listen that way for any length of time. So now and then when I see subs planned to reproduce 20Hz at 110dB, I really have to wonder... besides that it would (literally!) bring down the plaster on my ceiling, not to mention the eventual hearing damage. Anyway, I do have a couple of the dayton 315's that will make it into a design someday, so I reserve the right to change my mind. ;-) If you have a set of 7 TL's I'd live with them for a while and see if you think something is really lacking when you listen at your normal levels.

Gordon

[terryo]

Separate subs will just about insure better sound in any room. Using a "Distributed Bass" setup (Earl Geddes coined the term and did a lot of the work on this) will even out and cancel the Eigenmodes within the room and give much better sound. A minimum of three subs is necessary and 4 or 5 is even better, if you can swing it. There are nay-sayers of course, however the Physics involved in a real room, dictate that DB is really the only real solution.

Best Regards,
TerryO

[Ryan_M]

I went from one dayton 315 and two and WOW! The single had to have a lot of EQ at the listening position to get it smooth - sounded like crap anywhere else in the room. Two of them with no EQ sound a whole lot better... getting two more too.