Existing PA speaker designs?

[Texan]

Several months ago I got some very good advice on adding a little bit of bass to my party PA setup.
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=214887

The back story
The time has come to make some improvements, so I started by replacing the volume pots in the PA amp. This was a definite and easy improvement, but in testing the pots I realized that the speakers were just not cutting it. Terrible is not a strong enough word. I was planning on lining the cabinets with foam anyway so I removed the grill and woofer hoping to find some bulging oozing electrolytic caps to explain the terrible sound. There were no caps there were no inductors. There was only wire from the jack to each driver!
I guess over the last few years I have developed a much lower tolerance for poor sound and poor equipment. These things must have been that bad the whole time.
After these discoveries I think I would do much better to replace these than worry with a sub.

The question
Can you guys recommend existing designs? The most suitable complete design I have found is the smithereens from the showcase.
http://www.parts-express.com/project...ct=Smithereens

The only reason that I can see for not building these as they are is price. Since this is a rarely used setup I am hoping someone has done a 12” in a ported enclosure for a little lower price.

I have read pages and pages about the econowave, but I haven’t really found any complete designs based on it, and some haven’t really been any more econo than the smithereens.

[Randy L]

Before deciding on a speaker design, I'd first consider all the criteria you have for them. Some things to consider:
-- size of crowd and venue/room
-- purpose of speakers (monitors, FOH, backyard parties, live instrument, vocal or karaoke, etc)
-- bass reproduction (how low do you want them to go)
-- cabinet size and weight
-- mounting (floor standing, pole, flown)
-- amp's power rating
-- environment (indoors only, outdoors, damp/humid, etc)
-- budget

There are a lot of existing designs that I think you'll like, depending on what will suit your criteria. Bill seems to have some very intriguing designs, might want to check his site out.

[Texan]

Well…

Back yard parties or indoor parties will be the use. They will be used for music.

Weather resistance or gig abuse toughness is not real concern because of the infrequent use and in the house storage.

These will be replacing Peavey HC110’s or in other words replacing some very old low budget 10” PA speakers. These speakers were loud enough so
that should give a good idea of output required.

I will stick um on poles

The cabinet size expectations should be evident from the reference to the smithereens. Whatever I go with I will model the cabinet and make sure that it suits me.

The current amp is less than 200w rms per channel in to 8ohms. Probably about 150w I do not expect thermal power handling to be a problem, and I have not had clipping issues.

The bass extension should be somewhat emphasized at the expense of SPL. The cabinet must be a strait forward ported design not a horn. I do not expect to break Hoffman’s law. Bass extension was a big plus for the smithereens.

As far as budget I would like to see something around 350 a pair for all the
components, but as I said before lower priced than the smithereens is the goal. This does not include price for wood or cabinet carpet, handles… but should include a pair of some sort of terminals, drivers crossover components, and whatever horn is required for the highs.

A passive crossover is mandatory. This is the portion of the design that is critical to me. I need a design that has specific drivers and component values given.

Please post some links to other designs for 12” 2ways and I will look them over. I have not found any other well documented examples.

[Randy L]

I see lower bass extension being an issue using 12" drivers & pole mounting.
Can you live with a cabinet that is about 3.9 cubic feet?

for general PA use, and on a whim, I designed a 3.9 cf PA cabinet using these components.

Kappa 15LF woofer
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=290-460

Selenium D200E compression horn
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-225

When I bought the D200E, it came with this bi-radial horn and a passive in-line crossover.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=264-308

The parts total would be less than the $350 budget for components.

I ended up using my "3.9" primarily for patio parties I DJ'ed at a golf club.
They were pole mounted, and thanks to the lower extension of the Kappa 15LF's, over other pro woofers, the bass was surprisingly deep for being pole mounted. The D200E with that horn has an surprisingly smooth sound.

As was mentioned in the first linked thread, the new Kappalite woofer might be a much better choice for deep bass, but at $170 each pushes the cost above your budget.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=290-598

If interested, I'll have to find my build plans.

[Randy L]

Just found a thread in another forum I posted about them...
http://www.djchat.com/showthread.php?t=44551&highlight=

[wg_ski]

It goes against everything they tell you, but... for a lower power system consider the Delta Pro 15 or its neo magnet equivalent. The top end is better than the Kappas so if you insist on 2-way with an inexpensive horn you can do it. The SPL/watt is as high as you can go without going to $200 apiece edgewound VC drivers. You can get bass out of them -to the mid/hi 40's - but how *much* is excursion-limited. They will bottom (and blow out) at high power. But a 150 watt amp can't hurt them - even with the bass control at 5:00. You'll clip first.

[Paul O]

I retrofitted some old PA cabs with Delta 12LFA and Selenium DH200E drivers, made a few crossover adjustments and they didn't sound half bad.. even produced pretty good low end with a little EQ. The amp currently powering them is an old Yorkville AP500(150w/ch) and so far they have survived some pretty regular abuse at the bar where they are installed.

[Texan]

Paul it sounds like what I am looking for. I wondered about that 12.

All I would need is the crossover specs and a part number for the driver to mount on.

[Texan]

Randy
I am really looking to stick with a 12”
I am prepared to compromise as required. Remember that I am replacing an old 10” with no crossover, in a vented not ported box
I have not found any other 12” that would perform similarly to the one in the smithereens. That is for anything less than 140 a pop. My next guess is the one Paul mentioned.
Surely many people have built 12” PA speakers. Where are they?
The design you have proposed saves on the high frequency end, but that 15 is only $10 less than the selenium 12.
Don’t forget the cost of crossover components.
The other forum will not display if you are not a member.

[Texan]

Wg ski

That certainly does seem high value, but I am afraid even after some sever squashing on the box size it is still big for this.

[Randy L]

Your example of a nice design, the Smithereens, may be well above your budget. If you total the parts list for the speaker, it comes to well over $600.
May need to consider some trade-offs.

But I am confident that a very nice sounding 12" PA speaker can be had for your budget.

[Texan]

Your example of a nice design, the Smithereens, may be well above your budget. If you total the parts list for the speaker, it comes to well over $600.
May need to consider some trade-offs.

Yes
I should have probably noted the cost of the smithereens upfront I would think some compromises are required. But I am hoping to find a design with the compromises I prefer. I don’t need the highest power handling or SPL. I am hoping that that will open the door for some lower cost components. I have been modeling the delta 12LFA and it does look like it would work for me.
I am cautiously optimistic, but if we can get a complete design based on this woofer then I’ll have to go buy some plywood.


[QUOTE=But I am confident that a very nice sounding 12" PA speaker can be had for your budget.[/QUOTE]

I am glad to hear you say that. It doesn’t seem like 350 will go far at the local music shop. I don’t know why the second quote isn’t working oh well

[KevinN]

These would probably be within your budget with all materials and labour considered, and pack some nice bass [at moderate volume levels] into a small, very light weight package:

http://www.yorkville.com/products.as...&cat=22&id=337
http://www.proaudio.com/product_info...oducts_id=5411

I've used them for small parties outdoors, with a 200Wx2 powered mixer and they sound great with a bit of bass boost. Also have used them for voice-only PA (very crisp & clear!), easily covering an indoor crowd of 450 people with a pair.

[Randy L]

Yes
I have been modeling the delta 12LFA and it does look like it would work for me.

What box volume and port tuning did you like?

Plugging in some numbers on WinISD Beta, I see a box with internal volume of 2.8cf, with port tuning at 50hz provides for a fairly flat response.
F3 is 46hz which is dang good for a 12" driver.
Of course the external dimensions will need to be larger to compensate for the tweeter, internal bracing, and box fill.
I'm kinda leaning towards the slightly higher port tuning since it gives a slight (+1db) emphasis in the upper bass range from 60-120hz. This might produce a nice warmth to the sound, but others might want to chime in...I might be overlooking something.

At the 150 watts, the 117db SPL (at 1 meter) will be plenty loud enough. Just don't be blasting the booty songs (bass heavy).

[Texan]

That is a little sanity conformation. I was coming to right about the same… I experimented a little to see what would happen if the box size varied a little or if the port length changed some, and it seemed forgiving enough to be confident that it would work well.

I was tuning a little lower to reduce the bump, but I will have to think about whether I would like it better with the bump. I normally try to leave about a 1/2db bump in there so obviously we came up to very close to the same thing.

A funny thing is that the Peaveys I have now is that only the woofer is covered by the grill. The horn is narrow with a vent on each side. These vents just beg for people to put things in them. When I got them second hand they had lighters and beer caps in them.

Oh ya don’t worry no booty songs!

[Randy L]

A funny thing is that the Peaveys I have now is that only the woofer is covered by the grill. The horn is narrow with a vent on each side. These vents just beg for people to put things in them. When I got them second hand they had lighters and beer caps in them.

Oh ya don’t worry no booty songs!

Man I remember the times when after the gig, I would find burnt out cigarrettes and beer cans on top of my subs (which were placed in front of the stage).

If you want to spend the money, check out PE's perforated metal speaker covers. Example below.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=262-880

Or, for a much cheaper (but also cheaper looking) idea, Home Depot/Lowe's carries a couple varieties of metal "fabric".
If you have a metal shop nearby, I'm betting you can get some scrap Expanded metal (diamond shaped design) dirt cheap. The cabinet face will be small so a lot of metal shops have scraps that large sitting around.

[Texan]

There seems to be quite a few options for grill material. I have been looking around for options for a while, and I think I can get some expanded metal with very small openings as scrap. It looks nearly the same as the Peavey grills on the old speakers.

I found a local place with some reasonable looking birch ply wood.

My wife and I finally completed her wood 18’ long kayak that had been taking up the garage sprawled out diagonally across it half completed for so long.

I just need to get a design to build. It seems like a lot of the factory built speakers I have been looking at can double as stage monitors, and that the diy version I liked could be used as a stage monitor. Maybe there are a few stage monitor designs out there that nobody has thought to post.

[ampnation]

A couple of things...

First of all, not to be a shill for Bill -- I seem to be recommending his stuff more lately -- but have you seen these Omni 12's? They're 3-ways and they break your goal of not doing any horn-loading (you said that, right?) but it looks like they would be a little less (by a small margin) than the Smithereens. On the plus side, they are low power (great for your amp) and have great low range reproduction. The other thing you might not be too keen on is the size. Not sure if they're bigger cu.ft. than the Smithereens, but the face is larger for sure. They're shown in light grey carpet all around, but that's just one example.

2nd of all, you mention monitors. Have you looked for used monitors? There are a few sites that might help you find some older models that would work for you. Something like older JBL SR-series might be able to be had in that price range if you shop hard.

http://www.hticsproaudio.com/webtypesspeakers_2.html
http://www.mastersoundpro.com/used-equipment.htm
http://www.gcslv.com/products.htm

Another option... Zilch just displayed some econowaves using the standard PE trap boxes at the NC DIY Speaker Builders meeting that sounded good. If memory serves he said the economy version was about $250 per box and the deluxe was $450 per but that included the trap boxes which I believe are about $85 each. I'm sure you could contact him (he posts here) and ask if he could share the details with you.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=215536
http://ncdiyaudio.claub.net/Meet-Spring2010.html (see pictures #11 and #12)

[Texan]

Thanks for the recommendations and comments everyone.
Fedx says parts should arrive tomorrow. I decided to go ahead with the smithereens as shown in the showcase, but with a few changes of course. I will make the cabinets for pole or upright use only, so no funny shapes. I omitted a few unnecessary items, and upgraded others. I think I have a good idea for an integrated handle, so we will see if that turns out. I think these things are a little overkill for me, but this way I can up the power later. I will be curious to see how the efficiency of these compares to the old Peaveys.

[Randy L]

Take lots of pics and notes, then post up the process as a project here.