Old Sound Designs?

[HareBrained]

I have a friend who's just started into vinyl. He's got a refurbished Denon table and a Marantz receiver. He's got some cheapo speakers that need replacing. He's gone to a few of the used audio shops around the area and has taken a liking to the Dynaco and Advents. But, as is always the case, those are out of his price range. His budget is ~$300. He lives in an apartment so assume a LR/DR combo layout. He's not too worried about size and I'm going to be building the boxes for him.

I'm inclined to suggest a sealed enclosure with a 10" or 12" woofer and a 5"-6" paper mid with a silk tweeter. But 3-ways are inherently more expensive than 2-ways.

One thought was the Seas A26 with a RS28F. The writeup on the A26 suggests no xover with a HP on a tweeter at 2kHz. But this would be closer to $400 than $300.

Does anyone know of any designs that might fit the bill? I'm willing to design the speaker but since I don't have measurement equipment, the data will have to be readily available.

[johnnyrichards]

Boy, if there were ever an opportunity to combine the 10" Classic with the Silkie this is it

I know, I know... 10" two-way with an 1800 Hz crossover? Blasphemy! However, if he likes the sound of those "classic" speaks, this would come close to fitting the bill.

Crossover would seem to be relatively simple. If your friend is not too hung up on off axis performance that is.

Be cheap, too.

[spasticteapot]

The basic "Econo-Waveguide" with the Selenium compression driver and 12" Dayton Classic woofer seems to be a nice combination. It's basically a high-end Klipsch product from the 60s without the loopy pricetag.

[Brewski]

If the budget is really tight he could look at craigslist/ebay for AR or advent speakers that need to be re-foamed. I've seen speakers I was tempted to buy just due to the prices being below $50.00

Take it easy
Jay

[Jeff B.]

Boy, if there were ever an opportunity to combine the 10" Classic with the Silkie this is it

I know, I know... 10" two-way with an 1800 Hz crossover? Blasphemy! However, if he likes the sound of those "classic" speaks, this would come close to fitting the bill.

Crossover would seem to be relatively simple. If your friend is not too hung up on off axis performance that is.

Be cheap, too.

Yes. That's the same driver I was going to recommend. I have heard several people say they were amazed at how well it worked in a two-way. The response is flat enough that you could almost get by without a crossover on it, but it would be heresy for me to say something like that.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-315

[HareBrained]

I'll have to talk to him about the Econo-Waveguide. I've followed Zilch's (and Pete's) exploits here and it seems like it may be a very good match.

The DC-series of drivers was something I had in the back of my mind. I have never used them but understand them to be an excellent value. So you think the DC250 with a Silkie is possible? Would a DC 2.5way or 3way be better (different animals, I know, but just pondering)? And given the DC drivers are relatively inexpensive, an RS28F wouldn't be out of the question, right? It can go that extra octave down.

But if it's a 2-way, wouldn't it be better to use something like the Peerless Nomex HDS 8"? I think that teamed with the SBA SB25 would fit in the budget and sound better, don't you think?

BTW, I'm still asking if there are any OTS designs.

[rudyjakubin]

I'll have to talk to him about the Econo-Waveguide. I've followed Zilch's (and Pete's) exploits here and it seems like it may be a very good match.

The DC-series of drivers was something I had in the back of my mind. I have never used them but understand them to be an excellent value. So you think the DC250 with a Silkie is possible? Would a DC 2.5way or 3way be better (different animals, I know, but just pondering)? And given the DC drivers are relatively inexpensive, an RS28F wouldn't be out of the question, right? It can go that extra octave down.

But if it's a 2-way, wouldn't it be better to use something like the Peerless Nomex HDS 8"? I think that teamed with the SBA SB25 would fit in the budget and sound better, don't you think?

BTW, I'm still asking if there are any OTS designs.

Agreed!!! Zilch/Schumacher 2-way and Vinyl would sound great. I rolled my own with a 12" Cannabis Rex driver and B&C compression driver and Pyle econo-wave horn stuffed in a PE Trap box (1.6 cu. ft. sealed box)..
I chose the 16 ohm C-Rex driver for my tube amps...
Tube amps & vinyl really go well but that Marantz will sing nicely with vinyl.
You'll just need speakers to match and my experience with speakers and vinyl lead me to paper woofers & compression/waveguide speakers.

[Wolf]

I don't know how well this would suit in the way of cost...
But the size and such might apply.

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...aker/Fissures/

This would also work for about $320: I have not completed the writeup yet, and the final resistor on the tweeter is a 2.5 ohm in series:

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...h_speaker/MAX/

Maybe even silver-Flute? These would need tweakage:

http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...peaker/Suffix/

I wiall also 3rd a 10" 2-way as described. The results should be favorable.
Later,
Wolf

[dcibel]

If your friends like the Dynaco, maybe you could convince him to splurge on the Seas A26 and RS28F or 27TDFC? I think this could make an excellent "old-school" speaker, I've been trying to convince my dad to build something along these lines for a while...

A cheaper alternative could be the Peerless SLS 830668 10" woofer, but it will require a crossover on the woofer.

[HareBrained]

Looking at some of these designs, I realized the RS28F is a 4ohm driver with Zmin ~ 3.2 ohms. Does any one know if that will be a problem for an old Marantz receiver? I think something above 5 might be better.

The SLS 10" isn't a bad option. I like the "built-in" BSC, if the Peerless FR is to be believed. But a notch filter will be needed. Any idea if this is substantially better than the DC250?

[Brewski]

You'll probably need to pad the tweeter a bit depending on your drivers sensitivity so you'll probably get to add some resistance to the tweeter.

[andykriech]

I have a friend who's just started into vinyl. He's got a refurbished Denon table and a Marantz receiver. He's got some cheapo speakers that need replacing. He's gone to a few of the used audio shops around the area and has taken a liking to the Dynaco and Advents. But, as is always the case, those are out of his price range. His budget is ~$300. He lives in an apartment so assume a LR/DR combo layout. He's not too worried about size and I'm going to be building the boxes for him.

I'm inclined to suggest a sealed enclosure with a 10" or 12" woofer and a 5"-6" paper mid with a silk tweeter. But 3-ways are inherently more expensive than 2-ways.

One thought was the Seas A26 with a RS28F. The writeup on the A26 suggests no xover with a HP on a tweeter at 2kHz. But this would be closer to $400 than $300.

Does anyone know of any designs that might fit the bill? I'm willing to design the speaker but since I don't have measurement equipment, the data will have to be readily available.

The Lyra design might fit his needs, but it is a sealed 3-way and might be right at or just over his dollar limit. I recently built them for my garage system and really like them, good detail and non-fatiguing (though could use a bit more bass at times, but the Marantz has controls for that).

http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_fi...a/lyramain.htm

Andy.

[rudyjakubin]

Looking at some of these designs, I realized the RS28F is a 4ohm driver with Zmin ~ 3.2 ohms. Does any one know if that will be a problem for an old Marantz receiver? I think something above 5 might be better.

The SLS 10" isn't a bad option. I like the "built-in" BSC, if the Peerless FR is to be believed. But a notch filter will be needed. Any idea if this is substantially better than the DC250?

Careful with the Zmin and I wouldn't look for anything under 95db.
Heat is the enemy of SS amps.
I'm just wondering if you're familiar with vinyl recordings.
The Metallica 180 gram 45 rpm platters might not be playable in the same room on that turn-table.
'Enter Sandman' occupies the entire first side! The bass will knock that needle of off the grooves.

The old stuff like Jefferson Starships - Spitfire probably barely weighs 100 grams. Very thin - but played through high efficiency speakers really comes alive. The track 'St. Charles' by Gracie Slick has to put her in the top ten for artists covering that song.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Yes. That's the same driver I was going to recommend. I have heard several people say they were amazed at how well it worked in a two-way. The response is flat enough that you could almost get by without a crossover on it, but it would be heresy for me to say something like that.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-315

I did something very similar with the Peerless 850146 years ago. The CSX sandwich cone 10" had a natural response quite similar to the Classic 10.

http://www.d-s-t.com.au/data/Peerless/850146.pdf

I ran it with a Dynaudio D28 crossed at 1500Hz with a third order XO. It actually sounded pretty decent, not great, but not bad either.

[rudyjakubin]

Yes. That's the same driver I was going to recommend. I have heard several people say they were amazed at how well it worked in a two-way. The response is flat enough that you could almost get by without a crossover on it, but it would be heresy for me to say something like that.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-315

I had to double-check what you were getting at.
Once the pdf popped up I noticed the baffle step along with that breakup. Than I saw the Impedence graph.
I was wondering what a simple zoebel would do to the frequency response.
I got a pair in some Behringer 10" 2-way PA boxes with the Selenium Comp driver and Selenium horn.
I might give it a whirl...
The impedence starts rising at 200 hz and really takes off at 1K...
Trouble is that driver is only 89 db at 150 hz??????

[Pete Schumacher ®]

I had to double-check what you were getting at.
Once the pdf popped up I noticed the baffle step along with that breakup. Than I saw the Impedence graph.
I was wondering what a simple zoebel would do to the frequency response.
I got a pair in some Behringer 10" 2-way PA boxes with the Selenium Comp driver and Selenium horn.
I might give it a whirl...
The impedence starts rising at 200 hz and really takes off at 1K...
Trouble is that driver is only 89 db at 150 hz??????

A zobel alone will do nothing to the response.

But a zobel along with a small inductor and capacitor LP filter set to a 1000Hz cut off might do wonders in taming that peaking in response, allowing for a 1500 - 2000 Hz XO.

THE 10" for a two way would be the AE Speakers Lambda TD10S

[HareBrained]

I wondered how long it would be before AE would be mentioned. Only 15 replies. Plus a picture. Pete, you may have to start charging John for advertising. Obviously, the AE is outside the budget.

Why don't you and Zilch do a dual DC250 Econo-Waveguide? I think that would prove interesting.

Andy, the Lyra is the predecessor to the Veritas, in the PE Showcase. It makes for an interesting alternative. I'm going to bounce the options off of my friend and see what he's thinking.

Rudy, whatever we put in his apartment, they won't be loud. You may be right about the equipment but he'll deal with that when it's a problem. Right now, he knows what he's listening to can sound better, so that's where we're focusing.

Keep the ideas coming.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

I wondered how long it would be before AE would be mentioned. Only 15 replies. Plus a picture. Pete, you may have to start charging John for advertising. Obviously, the AE is outside the budget.

Why don't you and Zilch do a dual DC250 Econo-Waveguide? I think that would prove interesting.

Andy, the Lyra is the predecessor to the Veritas, in the PE Showcase. It makes for an interesting alternative. I'm going to bounce the options off of my friend and see what he's thinking.

Rudy, whatever we put in his apartment, they won't be loud. You may be right about the equipment but he'll deal with that when it's a problem. Right now, he knows what he's listening to can sound better, so that's where we're focusing.

Keep the ideas coming.

I had to mention it. It's my top candidate for the next 3-way using the TB 75-1558SE as a mid and possibly the SEAS 22TAFC up top.

As the bottom of a two way in the econowave line, I'd opt for the TD10M since it has another 4dB sensitivity over the 10S.

If bass isn't a consideration, then why not do the RS22528A? Small, yet with extension into the 40s in-room, and with all the detail you could want. Drivers aren't that expensive.

But if a large woofer two-way is the only option, the classic 10 might be your best bet. Though I'd opt for the RS28 over the silkie since you'll want to cross it as low as you can.

I worked up an XO for the RS28 and DC250-8 using PE's published data. No baffle step included. Assumed a wide baffle (>12")

Woofer XO:
1.8mH P-core
22uF
22uF and 8 Ohm zobel

Tweeter XO (reverse polarity):
10uF
.4mH 20ga
27uF
2.5 Ohm in series with tweeter

[rudyjakubin]

=Pete Schumacher ®;1645831]A zobel alone will do nothing to the response.

But a zobel along with a small inductor and capacitor LP filter set to a 1000Hz cut off might do wonders in taming that peaking in response, allowing for a 1500 - 2000 Hz XO.

Yep, that popped into my mind whilst cutting the lawn...

Why don't you and Zilch do a dual DC250 Econo-Waveguide? I think that would prove interesting.

3.4 ohms

, whatever we put in his apartment, they won't be loud. You may be right about the equipment but he'll deal with that when it's a problem. Right now, he knows what he's listening to can sound better, so that's where we're focusing.

Not loud. Low load on the amp so in essence it's loafing along at a 1/4 watt with full dynamics when the recording comes across them.

[HareBrained]

I worked up an XO for the RS28 and DC250-8 using PE's published data. No baffle step included. Assumed a wide baffle (>12")

Thanks Pete. That looks very promising. Is that the RS28A or F, or doesn't it matter? In your design, the min Z is >5 ohms which is much friendlier to the old equipment. The RS22528A is a nice speaker but 2.8ohms is not going to make the Marantz receiver very happy.

I guess my thought was paper cones and fabric domes. I'll make certain to determine his preference when we talk next.