New Dayton Pro !!

[Scott L]

Man Oh Man,
Once I got my adobe updated I was able to d.l. the specs on the new Dayton Pro. In my case I am choosing the 12" unit.

I am going to use at least 2 per side for lower midrange, and possibly down the road another 2 per side to augment my already purchased Eminence
HO 4012's for the upper bass range.

#295-032

[Brian Steele]

I've got one in hand. Was going to use it in a TH, but I think I may opt for a simple vented design instead (2 cu.ft., Fb=45 Hz or thereabouts).

Curiously, my WT3 says that the PA310's Le is 0.37 mH, which is much less than the published spec of 1.51 mH. The other measured specs are reasonably close to the published ones, but this particular one is way, way out.

[Brian Steele]

I've got one in hand. Was going to use it in a TH, but I think I may opt for a simple vented design instead (2 cu.ft., Fb=45 Hz or thereabouts).

I've got two designs to try out so far for subwoofer duty - a 6th order BP and a larger TH.

However, Parts Express is offering a $65 trapezoid cabinet that will fit this driver nicely - see http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=245-325. Just wondering if anyone has a nice two-way pro design that will work well with this driver and cabinet combination.

[Randy L]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=295-032

Just to verify that #295-032 is the one you're talking about. The specs seem to put it in competiition with many pro 15" woofers. I wonder how it would perform as a woofer in a pro application.

[donprice]

I've got two designs to try out so far for subwoofer duty - a 6th order BP and a larger TH.

However, Parts Express is offering a $65 trapezoid cabinet that will fit this driver nicely - see http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=245-325. Just wondering if anyone has a nice two-way pro design that will work well with this driver and cabinet combination.

Something like this?

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...&postcount=484

[Brian Steele]

Something like this?

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...&postcount=484

Yup. That particular design calls for a rear-mounted PA310 though, and I suspect that "horn" won't fit the PE cabinet.

[Flacjunky]

I've recently added a small (8x16) Listening Room / HT to my house.

Without much forethought, but based on positive previous experiences, I built a large sound bar (R-C-L) type cabinet, and mounted it on the wall against the ceiling, with the baffles tilted down to be on axis of my fixed listening position. It ended up with approx. 7.5 cu. ft. per Main.

I've currently got 2 RSS390s on the way, to be installed in a separate cabinet to be mounted low on the same wall. And I'm also planning to build some form of smaller front channel MTMs mounted on the side walls, in addition to the remainder of the surrounds.

..... now I've got to decide what combination of drivers to put in the large upper cabinets.

I'm wanting to go with an econowave-like setup using either a Dayton or Selenium 15" Pro-Woofer, and a Selenium CD / Waveguide for the front mains. I'm not really worried about the Pro-Woofers getting below 50Hz ...... but I just dont know how such a setup would compare with a conventional WMT 3-way.

Do you Pro-Audio guys run PA gear for reproduction at home? Or do you prefer conventional non-horn drivers?

Why do some guys on the other board seem to shun this equipment as being "Not Hi-Fi"?

[donprice]

Yup. That particular design calls for a rear-mounted PA310 though, and I suspect that "horn" won't fit the PE cabinet.

That is the same PE knock-down trapezoidal cabinet.

[Brian Steele]

That is the same PE knock-down trapezoidal cabinet.

Oh, it is? Excellent. There's still that issue of the PA310 being rear-mounted though...

[AMC]

Why do some guys on the other board seem to shun this equipment as being "Not Hi-Fi"?

Because it's not Hi-Fi! Pro-sound drivers and speakers are for pro-sound applications, Hi-Fi drivers and speakers are for Hi-Fi applications. You wouldn't use a corvette to haul a horse trailer around anymore then you would use a F450 to road course race.

Pro-sound is called that because of it's use, not because the Pro = better.

Pro-sound = louder, durable (Quantity)

Hi-Fi = better sound (Quality)

An average Pro-sound top is capable of, say around 125 db @ 1 M, where a HI-Fi would be hard pressed to reach 115. Yet the Hi-Fi is smoother and far more listenable in the near field.

That does not mean pro-sound sounds bad. One is a hammer, one is a screwdriver, you can't substitute one for the other.

[badman]

Because it's not Hi-Fi! Pro-sound drivers and speakers are for pro-sound applications, Hi-Fi drivers and speakers are for Hi-Fi applications. You wouldn't use a corvette to haul a horse trailer around anymore then you would use a F450 to road course race.

Pro-sound is called that because of it's use, not because the Pro = better.

Pro-sound = louder, durable (Quantity)

Hi-Fi = better sound (Quality)

An average Pro-sound top is capable of, say around 125 db @ 1 M, where a HI-Fi would be hard pressed to reach 115. Yet the Hi-Fi is smoother and far more listenable in the near field.

That does not mean pro-sound sounds bad. One is a hammer, one is a screwdriver, you can't substitute one for the other.


SIGH.... misinformation is hard to undo in the interwebs

[Randy L]

Badman, what part of what AMC said do you disagree with?

Looks a great & fun debate about a popular topic is about to unfold!

[AMC]

I doubt it Randy, generally if people have something relevant to say, they will say it, not drop a stink bomb and leave, but we shall see. (probably out google-ing everything he can right now to bolster the comment)

[Phil_RC_1]

Badman, what part of what AMC said do you disagree with?

Looks a great & fun debate about a popular topic is about to unfold!

OK, I'll take on Badmans side, since I see some wisdom in it.

First, it sounds like AMC is declaring that Pro drivers could "NEVER" be used in anything considered a SQ speaker, and it just won't work if you have the audacity to try it. Nor would HI-Fi drivers ever stand up to the abuse of PA work. I may have misinterpreted AMC but he seams kinda forceful and close minded about it. (Keep in mind, I'm using the term "Driver" for raw drivers, and "Speaker" for a box/xover/drivers, complete speaker design)

Sure a Pro driver (woofer, mid or tweet) WILL tend to be efficient, durable and robust but there's no reason they can't sound good with low distortion and good FR. If the drivers design has the right trade-offs, they can be very nice to listen to, on order with some of the best "Hi-Fi" drivers. Using good quality Pro drivers in a speaker design isn't necessarily a bad idea.

I agree though that most SQ drivers wouldn't be a great idea for typical PA work, unless you've taken every consideration into account in the final speaker design.

I guess I'm saying that an analogy like "You wouldn't use a corvette to haul a horse trailer around anymore then you would use a F450 to road course race." really doesn't apply, and a statement like "Pro-sound = louder, durable (Quantity)
Hi-Fi = better sound (Quality)"
tells me he's fairly closed minded about the issue.

A lot of high end, big $$, very good sounding speakers would have never come about if those statements were true and absolute. Think KLIPSCH, JBL, Aura 1808. EDIT: Scattered through the 45 pages of this link are a few good examples. Maybe only the tweet or mid or woof is a pro driver in some of these designs but they are good examples to prove a point.

[Flacjunky]

So, that settles it huh? .... or maybe not.

.... I didn't intend to cause a rift here, I just dont want to throw away my hard earned money on an Econowave type setup when I could spend a little less on SQ Cones and Domes.

I'm gettin' to where I really like LOUD Electronic music lately, and I figured it would sound pretty good with a Pro-woofer and CD/Horn backed up with a couple subs. But it would be a near-field (6 feet) setup as well.

..... I've got zero PCD Mettle, nor the time to really learn enough, so I thought if I went with the all-Selenium setup their factory crossovers would be sufficient.


Thanks for the responses. I'm still in the quandary though, but I have a couple more weeks to pull the trigger. I'm sure I'll waffle back and forth daily until then.

[AMC]

Not closed minded, I am speaking in general terms, not specifics,

IE, take a good high quality Pro sound 15 Vs a high quality HiFI 15, lets use the RS15HF Vs the KappaPro15LF (only because I've used them and they are about the same price) The Kappa will be much more efficient (about 11db as I recall, thats like 8X more efficient, wow) but with an Fs of about 40, will lack the depth desired for home use compared to the RS15 with it's 18Hz Fs. This is an example where efficiency is traded for low end range.

With any driver, (read ANY DRIVER) there are always trade offs, ProSound drivers trade for efficiency. It's just the nature of the beast. Keep in mind that things like the eminence Lab series are kind of a different beast on there own. Again, I'm not making a qualitative statement here, what I am saying is that there is a tool for every job, pick the right tool, and job goes better. (I can road race my F450, it's just not very smart)

There is a reason most of us don't have a pair of Peavey's in our living room, and very few concerts are run with Paradigm. (I don't think paradigm has a pro division???)

[PunkSweeper]

I'll throw in that most Pro audio drivers have better transient response than Hi-Fi drivers at the cost of some FR linearity and low end, hence the slam of a rock concert.

[billfitzmaurice]

I'll throw in that most Pro audio drivers have better transient response than Hi-Fi drivers at the cost of some FR linearity and low end, hence the slam of a rock concert.

The slam of a rock concert comes from their 110+dB levels at the listening position, not transient response. The fidelity of pro-touring systems is not one iota less than that of any hi-fi system. But those pro-touring systems don't use cabs loaded with fifty dollar drivers.

I doubt it Randy, generally if people have something relevant to say, they will say it, not drop a stink bomb and leave, but we shall see. (probably out google-ing everything he can right now to bolster the comment)

Since badman is on my ignore list I don't know what he said, but the reason he's on my ignore list is that I don't care about anything he might say. I don't know if it's the same person but that moniker pops up on a few forums, and in every case he never has anything good to say, so I think it's the same guy. His moniker should be 'badmouth'. The kind of guy that makes the 'ignore list' a very worthwhile forum function.

[Phil_RC_1]

Not closed minded, I am speaking in general terms, not specifics,

IE, take a good high quality Pro sound 15 Vs a high quality HiFI 15, lets use the RS15HF Vs the KappaPro15LF (only because I've used them and they are about the same price) The Kappa will be much more efficient (about 11db as I recall, thats like 8X more efficient, wow) but with an Fs of about 40, will lack the depth desired for home use compared to the RS15 with it's 18Hz Fs. This is an example where efficiency is traded for low end range.

Model both of those in the same 200L box tuned to 20hz with a 100 watt input. Since these are subs, look only at their response from 40 hz down to 20hz. The Kappa hangs right in there (within it's x-max limits). Why would you? I don't know, being the cost is in the same ball park. But I would chose my Pro 1808 (which its FR models very similar to the kappa in an EBS aligment) over the RS15HF, because of it's max output and lower distortion.

With any driver, (read ANY DRIVER) there are always trade offs, ProSound drivers trade for efficiency. It's just the nature of the beast. Keep in mind that things like the eminence Lab series are kind of a different beast on there own. Again, I'm not making a qualitative statement here, what I am saying is that there is a tool for every job, pick the right tool, and job goes better. (I can road race my F450, it's just not very smart)

There is a reason most of us don't have a pair of Peavey's in our living room, and very few concerts are run with Paradigm. (I don't think paradigm has a pro division???)

PEAVEY for SQ, bad example (LOL)

Of coarse, I see your point and I've read enough of your posts to know that you know a thing or two about the subject, but this is interesting. (To the OP, Sorry to hijack the thread )

I still contend however, that certain, not all, Pro drivers can be quite suitable (if not better in some instances) in a home SQ roll. Woofers for sub duty are a bit more "cut and dry" with only a few exceptions. Bills horns, The Lab series that you mentioned as well as the old Aura 1808 (My current sub) just to name three.

If we're talking about Bass, Mid-bass and horn/waveguide mids and tweets (frequencies above 40hz) we open up a much wider range of drivers that can go either way and do quite well, again assuming the system designer is doing his job. Some of the econowave (with proper xover for the paticular drivers being used) designs are good examples. Although my listening experience of the Econowaves is limited, I liked what I have heard of them. (Which brings us a little closer to the original thread (Hopefully))

[donprice]

So, that settles it huh? .... or maybe not.

.... I didn't intend to cause a rift here, I just dont want to throw away my hard earned money on an Econowave type setup when I could spend a little less on SQ Cones and Domes.

I'm gettin' to where I really like LOUD Electronic music lately, and I figured it would sound pretty good with a Pro-woofer and CD/Horn backed up with a couple subs. But it would be a near-field (6 feet) setup as well.

..... I've got zero PCD Mettle, nor the time to really learn enough, so I thought if I went with the all-Selenium setup their factory crossovers would be sufficient.


Thanks for the responses. I'm still in the quandary though, but I have a couple more weeks to pull the trigger. I'm sure I'll waffle back and forth daily until then.

I use eWaves for my HT. Kappalite 15's for the mains and Deltalite 10 for the center channel. Yes, they will go stupid loud and, to me, sound really nice doing it. I don't think you have to worry about wasting your money. Just pick one of the documented combinations and you don't have any crossover design work to do. See the 750+ page thread at AudioKarma for to much information.