Upgrading The Outdoor HT to 11.2

[Hydrazine]

Hi Guys,

I am looking for speaker recommendations on how to best upgrade an outdoor theater in the backyard. Its currently a 2.1 audio system that will easily reach reference level. The dynamics are excellent but the DIY PA speakers are unsatisfactory and the subs are in too small of an enclosure. Its time to upgrade to better quality speakers and utilize the full potential of the Denon 11.2 surround sound capabilities.

The current system consists of:

Denon AVR 4311CI with Audyssey MultEQ XT32. 170 WPC
2 Behringer EP2500's to power the subs. LP @ ~80Hz.
8 Dayton RSS390HF 15" subs in 2.5^3ft sealed enclosures.
2 DIY tops with 12" Kappa mid/woofers and EV compression drivers.

TOPS: The plan is to ditch the old PA top cabinets and use a proper design that can offer good dynamics with better sound quality.

BASS: The eight Dayton RSS390HF 15" subs will go into new bass cabinets 12^3ft each tuned to 17Hz. Low pass @ ~80Hz. I may even experiment by putting them in 6^3ft enclosures tuned to 20Hz. ...I'm open to cabinet suggestions here too. There are no limits to cabinet size. The only objective is to obtain the most satisfying sound.

What do you think should be done with the tops?
I would like to be able to cleanly reach reference level from ~25 feet away. High pass @ 80Hz-120Hz.

I have been looking at using the Dayton RS722's and I've also considered an array of Dayton PS180-8... but I'm not really sure if either is appropriate.

I have also been looking at the ElectroVoice ZX1i speakers for tops.
http://www.electrovoice.com/sitefile...1_Brochure.pdf
The ZX1i gets very good reviews by the pro-audio and DJ guys.... but many DJ's have a totally different perspective on good sound.
The ZX1i will handle the power easily and will get plenty loud I'm sure, but I havn't heard them and who knows what they sound like relative to the RS722's.

Alternately, I'm sure the RS7222 sounds much better under normal conditions but I don't know if the RS722's will fall apart at dynamic reference levels, outdoors at ~25 feet away.

It leaves me wondering which would end up sounding better if pushed to reference level.

Can you help out here? I've been researching this for the past couple months and so far I found the Dayton RS722 kit and the EV ZX1i @ $325.... but I don't want to pull the trigger hastily. Do you know of better options for this application?

Below are images of the setup and environment so you can get a better idea of the situation.
Surround speakers will be going everywhere around the listening area. Full up 11.2 system.


Pictures of the listening area:






The old PA setup to be replaced. Subwoofers have since doubled.


Picture with the old projector. Its been replaced with the BenQ W6000. The electric roll up screen is covered in black plastic sheeting for sprinkler protection when its not in use.


Night time image of the theater area


What can you recommend to optimize the speakers for this application?

Thank you for your help!
Tony

[killa]

Maybe some horns ala bill fitzmaurice. That a neat setup. That will chase the neighbors away.

[Hydrazine]

Anything with piezo tweeters is automatically eliminated.

[DIYNut42]

Anything with piezo tweeters is automatically eliminated.

Bill's designs have flexibility pretty much all around. I think the designs include ways to use loaded horns in the place of piezos.

Not trying to push you toward any one design, but if it were me that is definitely the way I would go as it would be great for an outdoor set-up like that. His website has a large varieity of designs, with all the output specs published. Having heard a set of his tops, they play VERY loud, very clean, and for a fraction of the cost if you are a DIY'er.

[killa]

Anything with piezo tweeters is automatically eliminated.

Bill uses compression drivers in his designs. They are very good designs btw.

[DoubleTap]

Have me over and I'll give you plenty of ideas

For subs I'd say put them nearfield. Thost RSS' are great drivers, but just not capable of the SPL needed for your application ... unless they're nearfield.

Do you take this stuff inside when you're not playing a movie? It's obviously not waterproofed, so just wondering. Arrays would be a good idea, but if you move the stuff in and out, you'd need to stock up on Preparation H.

[DIYNut42]

Have me over and I'll give you plenty of ideas

An even better idea!

[Hydrazine]

Have me over and I'll give you plenty of ideas

For subs I'd say put them nearfield. Thost RSS' are great drivers, but just not capable of the SPL needed for your application ... unless they're nearfield.

Do you take this stuff inside when you're not playing a movie? It's obviously not waterproofed, so just wondering. Arrays would be a good idea, but if you move the stuff in and out, you'd need to stock up on Preparation H.

The 8 15" subs are way more powerful than needed... and that's just the way I like it. Over 4K watts on just the bass. Its plenty.

As for horns. I don't have quite the wood working skills to get that deep into horn fabrication. Sealed and bass reflex is my comfort zone. PE kits are a slam dunk.

Note: I don't need a 130db rock concert in the back yard. I would however like to achieve IMAX theater like sound quality and loudness.

Dynamic, clean and deep. THAT'S WHAT I'M REALLY AFTER.

EDIT: Speakers will only be outside for the summer and will remain covered when not in use.

[DIYNut42]

If placed properly, and depending on the surroundings, I bet you could get away with some higher end PE kits then. You must live in a low humidty area. i would never think about leaving a build outside in missouri. Even covered up.

[greywarden]

Ok, so I'm guessing there's not much of a budget issue going on here, lol.

In order to get the IMAX dynamics, etc. You need bass horns. BillFitzmaurice.com has them. Plug, plug, plug

Dividing up each of the RSS390HFs with each speaker, save the center, would help level out the bass response.

Then mount the 7 LCR, SR, SBR, SL, SBL speakers on top of the subs. There is a design with the Eminence Coax speakers that uses a coax in the middle of 4 matching midbasses, That would be linearray-ish, not too expensive and not too heavy. That would be a relatively high power 3-way.

Or you could go Pimpin' on 11 of the RCF 15" Coaxials ($559) with an actual horn, then mount a BMS Coaxial Horn Driver ($697) on the back, and work out a 3-way crossover for it. I'm sure Madisound or someone here could do it for a dime. That way you have 11 35lb boxes vs. 11 50-60lb+ boxes to lug around.

I'd really love to build a setup like that one day, not outside, really, haha, that's pretty epic.

[djg]

A bunch of Econowaves in the PE trapazoid cabs.

[Erich H]

Boy did you miss out about 1 month ago, but there might be some stuff left over that you can use. There was a JBL group buy for a boat load of theater stuff from a local cinema closing down. It had me busy boxing stuff up on another forum. The cost was crazy cheap, and I just passed that on and boxed it for free. My busy season at work hadn't started yet.




All the 15 and 18" drivers were removed and guys at AVS bought them up pretty quick along with the compression drivers. Funny stuff....








BUT, I do have a lot of the horns left that I didn't really mentioned yet. And the metal throats that go with them. Those are what you need! And they're fiberglass too. I was told just the horn goes for $300 used and the throat goes for $70 - $80 used. I was able to get both parts for $70!


Also, there's a guy on the AVS forum named MKTheater. He has 3 of the completed JBL theater speakers that he got last year (not from this deal) that include the amps used for them. I believe he is selling them with the amp and wires for a good price. Can't recall the price.



I also got 120 JBL theater surrounds in that group buy. I do have some left over.......they were only $45 each! Sweet! But I'm getting down to the end and any cabinets that had nicks or grill fabric damage, I gutted them and boxed the internal parts up separately so guys could make their own cabinets. The speakers themselves looked fine:

[Hydrazine]

If placed properly, and depending on the surroundings, I bet you could get away with some higher end PE kits then. You must live in a low humidty area. i would never think about leaving a build outside in missouri. Even covered up.

Higher end PE kits? Which would thoes be?

Located in So. Cal.. Its pretty dry out here in the Summer.

[Hydrazine]

A bunch of Econowaves in the PE trapazoid cabs.

I was giving the Econowaves a really good look yesterday too. They just about fit the bill ...but they don't seem to have enough bass extension to 80Hz.

If there is an option with reasonably flat bass extension to 80Hz let me know.

[Hydrazine]

Erich H,
Any complete JBL horns remaining? I'm sure they could be useful.

[Erich H]

Erich H,
Any complete JBL horns remaining? I'm sure they could be useful.

I've got a bunch of the horns with the metal throats. By the time I found this deal the original owner of this stuff was selling the compression drivers for super cheap. So he sold them very quickly, like 20 in one day on Ebay! He didn't realize what he was doing. After getting pricing advise from the other forum, I went into the guys warehouse and bought everything he had left.

At that point there were only 9 compression drivers remaining: (that's a 6.5" Tang Band subwoofer on top)






Those sold really fast on the AVS forum. But I have PLENTY of the horns left. You just need 2" compression drivers, or an adapter to fit smaller compression drivers. There's a way to use them with other drivers, but I don't know what that is.


Obviously with something like these you really wouldn't need an 11.2 set up. They each cover a LOT of area and can be crossed over low enough for some pro 15's to knock out the midbass and mid range.


I don't know how many I could put on a pallet to save on shipping. Quite a few I'd think.

[nottaway]

+1 on the horn loaded subs I think those drivers are already modeled in some designs.....

[Hydrazine]

How about the RS722's? Has anyone modeled the max spl?

Is there an Econowave with extension to 80Hz?

I don't really want to venture too far into new territory. It would be best to stick with existing and well proven designs.

[Hydrazine]

I was looking at the response curves for the various Econowave setups and saw they had very weak bass... are those plots based on an infinite baffle measurement?

That would change everything.

[killa]

Eric H. I would be interested in those jbl surrounds. What model are the?