(Help) First DIY speakers - need to avoid humiliation

[rs_toronto]

Dear DIYers,

I've been following the board for some time and now, I think, I'm ready to venture into the world of DIY speakers (plus one of my existing speakers died on me).

I need your help with choosing my first DIY project.

Preliminary, I anchored myself on an MTM configuration such as P-E's Dayton Audio:
(http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-781)

Any advice? Am I missing something? Is there a "better" first DIY project? Am I asking the right questions?

Thank you!

Some details / background information:
(Pardon my non-technical language, I’m trying my best; I hope I give enough information to explain the situation)

Budget: US $500 everything in.

Objectives:
- make the speakers great enough to avoid any future objections from my skeptical wife (she is not convinced that DIY speakers can be better than commercially available ones)
- make a set of speakers that is better than a pair of Mission M34i towers (can get a pair for $299 or so; new)
- improve my music listening "experience" with better soundstage, clarity, and tighter yet deeper bass
- needless to say that my budget does not allow me to make “state-of-the-art” speakers

The speakers will be for music/movies (80%+ of the time will be for music). We are not party animals and the speakers will work on low-medium volume.

Musical preferences: easy jazz (Diana Krall); easy listening (Rod Stuart, Sting, Barry White); Pink Floyd; The Eagles; The Doors.
Aspiring to move to a "heavier" jazz and "easier/beginners’" classical music.

Current speakers (Mission M31, bookshelves) lack the "resolution" -- to provide a pleasing sound with distinct enough instruments -- when there are more than 3-4 instruments in a composition. Whenever I put a more “complex” music, all instruments are “mashed together.” I tried small Infinity speakers and they were much better in reproducing the multitude of guitars in Gypsy Kings tracks (as one example). The midrange (?) performance of my M31’s is Ok: the voice is clear and it seems that voice nuances are somewhat developed. However, it always seems that there is a “blanket” in front of the speakers that does not allow the voice to separate from the speaker box. It always feels like the voice lacks just a tiny bit of clarity. The idea behind getting a new set of speakers is to improve the “resolution”, soundstage, and bass of the speakers (what is left, eh?). For example, I would like to get a more “realistic” bass in Krall’s album “All for You: A Dedication to Nat King Cole Trio”.

Equipment: I will drive the speakers with
Source - CD or Apple Lossless files.

Player - Marantz DVD (http://www.audioreview.com/cat/home-...7_1587crx.aspx)
or TASCAM USB mixer (http://tascam.com/product/us-122l/images/).
I could not tell the difference between these two in a blind test on the same set of speakers and the same composition). In the future might look into NAD or Marantz CD player ($330 or so). Don't think that I will be able to afford anything more expensive than this in any foreseeable future.

Amplifier - SoundTech STX200 2-channel reference amplifier (100W/channel - http://www.soundtech.com/products/pa/stx200/)
or my old Technics "Class A" amp with stated 95W/channel.
I have both in good working order; somehow SoundTech is able to "show" more detail on the same Mission M31 speakers. In the future, I will get either Marantz PM8004 (PM5004?) or NAD C316/326BEE amplifier to match the CD-player (above).

In other words, I hope to build speakers good enough to work well with my current setup as well good enough to shine with a new player/amplifier set. Am I asking too much?

Skills and level of work:
I have limited/no woodworking skills. Hence, the need for an assembled and finished cabinet.

Sub-questions:
1) Initially, I anchored myself on MTM configuration. My understanding is that by having two mid-woofers, I can improve base performance and increase the speaker sensitivity (so that later I can move to a lower-power amplifier). Do I need an MTM set-up to achieve my goals?

2) Is there a way to make my project better/cheaper by switching to “native” 2-way setup (smaller cabinet, 1 mid-woofer might be better than mid-woofer used in MTM kit above)?

3) If you think that MTM is a great starter concept for my goals, is there anything that I should change in P-E’s kits (such as http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-781)

4) Is there a good start-up kit that I could use for my goals? On the assumption is that I will get P-E’s cabinets, tweeters/woofers, and that I will solder a pre-designed crossover.

5) Any additional thoughts/advice?

Thank you in advance for all your input!

--Roman

[theLinks]

That price tag is for one each speaker! That is almost twice your budget. The other option, is have one of the cnc guys on the forum build a set for you, and hope they live close by or someone here lives close and will give you a hand. Keep looking or reevaluate your budget.
Tim

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Don't see how you could go wrong with that particular MTM. Nice drivers, and a very capable designer behind the XO.

[mriversinco]

I'd also look at some of Zaph's designs. Very well respected designer.

Check out:

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...with-cabinets/

Or if you could swing it, although it's a 2 way and not an mtm:

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...pair-complete/

You can read up on his designs at http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA5/

[theLinks]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-953
You will still need for someone that will cut the driver holes or use a cnc person. This I believe is a pair, and will sound good also.
Tim

[Mgboy]

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-953
You will still need for someone that will cut the driver holes or use a cnc person. This I believe is a pair, and will sound good also.
Tim

Single.

[2leftthumbs]

How are you set up for tools?

[theLinks]

Single.

oops! I was looking at pairs and hit the wrong link. Pick one as a kit pair or take the plunge and DIY and get more for your money, satisfaction, and frustration also. Have a little patience and something may pop up, as a kit or in the classifieds.


Here's one of the options: http://www.diysoundgroup.com/index.html

[Mgboy]

Personally, if I didn't have what it took to build my own (woodworking or measurement tools) and I had a 500 dollar budget for a pair, I'd get two of these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=301-957

[howard]

I agree!

[Brewski]

Personally, if I didn't have what it took to build my own (woodworking or measurement tools) and I had a 500 dollar budget for a pair, I'd get two of these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=301-957

I have to agree with Mgboy. The cost of cabinets is the biggest factor in the choice. There are several nice designs that are 500 or lower in cost for drivers and crossover parts but I can't think of any that would drop directly into a cabinet that wouldn't require any wood working that I think would fair better than the deal that you'd get on the usher bookshelves.

Pre made cabs from PE would still require some router work to mount and recess tweeters and make woofer cut outs. A competitor sells some pre made cabinets and pre cut baffles but the cabs and baffles would be half your budget.

Take it easy
Jay

[djg]

For 500 dollars MTM, totally prebuilt cabinet, I would agree that the Madisound Zaph design that mriversinco linked is the way to go.

[michiganpat]

for a start, you could pick up one if EricH's flatpacks for the Overnight Sensation MTM, and build those....you're looking at a less than $200 investment, small footprint, and a pretty neat little speaker.

for a little bigger speak, I'd look to board member don radik's Aurbacs, using the $11 aurasound 6" woofer and vifa tweet, or the madisound kit using that driver...

[fbov]

...Objectives:
...- improve my music listening "experience" with better soundstage, clarity, and tighter yet deeper bass
- needless to say that my budget does not allow me to make “state-of-the-art” speakers

The speakers will be for music/movies (80%+ of the time will be for music). We are not party animals and the speakers will work on low-medium volume....

In other words, I hope to build speakers good enough to work well with my current setup as well good enough to shine with a new player/amplifier set. Am I asking too much?...

I picked up on a couple things.
- You sound interested in learning, so you're likely on the steep part of the audio learning curve with respect to audibility of speaker shortfalls.
- You admit that your budget limits your quality reach
- you're looking for music, but not terribly loud, as opposed to HT.

That sounds like a job for a small-to-moderate size TM.

I find MTMs wonderful for HT and multi-channel music, but at a disadvantage for 2-channel music. I don't get a sense of spread out of an MTM, imaging is more localized, as it should be with a controlled directivity design. A TM in contrast fills the room with instrument images, spreading them far more than the MTM.

Looking solely at Zaph's Madisound kits...
http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...with-cabinets/

The TM version of the MTM

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...pair-complete/

Upgrade to premium-line Seas drivers

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com...rts-only-pair/

Top shelf drivers

$350, $650, and $1050 without boxes. All TM 2-ways, but with varying quality and capability. The ZA5.2 is a good speaker, and you may not notice the improved quality of the SR71's until you've lived with the ZA5.2's for a while. Learning takes time. Eventually, you may have the desire to move these to the bedroom and make something better. Or maybe not.

That's part of the fun.

HAve fun,
Frank

PS I picked Zaph's only because he designs families of speaker, Madisound sells boxes, and others had suggested it. There are a lot more options available with boxes, and tons more if you can make boxes...

[Brewski]

The concerns I'd have with the ZA series with the pre-built cabinets is one how they'd be received for the WAF factor. Secondly not that I've heard them but, I've heard enough people that weren't crazy about the tweeter that I think the usher speakers on sale would be a better option. The catch 22 is they are pre made so DIY isn't really involved.

Take it easy
Jay

[djg]

The original post says he's without woodworking skills. Perhaps screwing in the speakers and terminals and soldering the crossover is all the OP wants. The Usher D'Appolito kits on sale all seem to have the truncated woofer. Certainly a challenge for the new woodworker to deal with. The descriptions don't say if the baffle is machined for the drivers or not.

If, the baffles are finished, those Ushers would be perfect. There are TMs and MTMs still available for cheap. The cabs look nicer than the Madisound ZA cabs. If the baffles are not finished, that might move the OP over to the ZA kits. Worth a call to the friendly PE sales rep.

[jcpahman77]

I'm going to fly in the face of most of the advice here, but I'm a bit of a newb myself so take it with a grain of salt. If you're really looking to setup for HT and want to plunge into DIY, grab a set of the TriTrix TL's; $200 for the drivers, x-over components, and cabs -- some assembly required, but not rocket science. Use the money you have left for a quality subwoofer to reproduce the lower octave for HT. Musically, I love these speakers, especially if you're not looking for ear shattering SPL.

[johnastockman]

Dear DIYers,

I've been following the board for some time and now, I think, I'm ready to venture into the world of DIY speakers (plus one of my existing speakers died on me).

I need your help with choosing my first DIY project.

Preliminary, I anchored myself on an MTM configuration such as P-E's Dayton Audio:
(http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-781)

Any advice? Am I missing something? Is there a "better" first DIY project? Am I asking the right questions?

Thank you!

Some details / background information:
(Pardon my non-technical language, I’m trying my best; I hope I give enough information to explain the situation)

Budget: US $500 everything in.

Objectives:
- make the speakers great enough to avoid any future objections from my skeptical wife (she is not convinced that DIY speakers can be better than commercially available ones)
- make a set of speakers that is better than a pair of Mission M34i towers (can get a pair for $299 or so; new)
- improve my music listening "experience" with better soundstage, clarity, and tighter yet deeper bass
- needless to say that my budget does not allow me to make “state-of-the-art” speakers

The speakers will be for music/movies (80%+ of the time will be for music). We are not party animals and the speakers will work on low-medium volume.

Musical preferences: easy jazz (Diana Krall); easy listening (Rod Stuart, Sting, Barry White); Pink Floyd; The Eagles; The Doors.
Aspiring to move to a "heavier" jazz and "easier/beginners’" classical music.

Current speakers (Mission M31, bookshelves) lack the "resolution" -- to provide a pleasing sound with distinct enough instruments -- when there are more than 3-4 instruments in a composition. Whenever I put a more “complex” music, all instruments are “mashed together.” I tried small Infinity speakers and they were much better in reproducing the multitude of guitars in Gypsy Kings tracks (as one example). The midrange (?) performance of my M31’s is Ok: the voice is clear and it seems that voice nuances are somewhat developed. However, it always seems that there is a “blanket” in front of the speakers that does not allow the voice to separate from the speaker box. It always feels like the voice lacks just a tiny bit of clarity. The idea behind getting a new set of speakers is to improve the “resolution”, soundstage, and bass of the speakers (what is left, eh?). For example, I would like to get a more “realistic” bass in Krall’s album “All for You: A Dedication to Nat King Cole Trio”.

Equipment: I will drive the speakers with
Source - CD or Apple Lossless files.

Player - Marantz DVD (http://www.audioreview.com/cat/home-...7_1587crx.aspx)
or TASCAM USB mixer (http://tascam.com/product/us-122l/images/).
I could not tell the difference between these two in a blind test on the same set of speakers and the same composition). In the future might look into NAD or Marantz CD player ($330 or so). Don't think that I will be able to afford anything more expensive than this in any foreseeable future.

Amplifier - SoundTech STX200 2-channel reference amplifier (100W/channel - http://www.soundtech.com/products/pa/stx200/)
or my old Technics "Class A" amp with stated 95W/channel.
I have both in good working order; somehow SoundTech is able to "show" more detail on the same Mission M31 speakers. In the future, I will get either Marantz PM8004 (PM5004?) or NAD C316/326BEE amplifier to match the CD-player (above).

In other words, I hope to build speakers good enough to work well with my current setup as well good enough to shine with a new player/amplifier set. Am I asking too much?

Skills and level of work:
I have limited/no woodworking skills. Hence, the need for an assembled and finished cabinet.

Sub-questions:
1) Initially, I anchored myself on MTM configuration. My understanding is that by having two mid-woofers, I can improve base performance and increase the speaker sensitivity (so that later I can move to a lower-power amplifier). Do I need an MTM set-up to achieve my goals?

2) Is there a way to make my project better/cheaper by switching to “native” 2-way setup (smaller cabinet, 1 mid-woofer might be better than mid-woofer used in MTM kit above)?

3) If you think that MTM is a great starter concept for my goals, is there anything that I should change in P-E’s kits (such as http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=302-781)

4) Is there a good start-up kit that I could use for my goals? On the assumption is that I will get P-E’s cabinets, tweeters/woofers, and that I will solder a pre-designed crossover.

5) Any additional thoughts/advice?

Thank you in advance for all your input!

--Roman

First, welcome Roman, and second, you're getting some great advice. Not having the tools/space/shop to make your own cabinets limits your choices, but I wouldn't consider that a big "limitation". Nice first post with very good info. I'm definitely not a XO designer, but I have fallen into many of the pitfalls that many noob-DIY-ers get trapped in. Picking an existing design/project is a great start. If the XO is not designed properly, the end result will be very unpleasant. Which means stay far away from pre-made or textbook-formula XO's. I'm familiar with Mission speakers...we used to sell them at the audio store I worked at. If all you've heard is retail-market speakers, you'll be in for a pleasant surprise when all is said and done, no matter which design you choose from the available advice/resources. Paul has some terrific reading about DIY-ing your own speakers here:

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy

Read everything under "Resources" at the right of the page. Since you've done some reading, you're ahead of the curve already. As a guy who worked around all manner of OEM speakers, from inexpensive house-brands to 6-figure-priced exotics, I have come to certain conclusions about retail and mass-market speakers. The amount of DIY designs I've built, for both myself and friends/family, prove every week about the viability/superiority of DIY designs vs store-bought. I won't go into the specifics, as that's in my blogs, but I think you'll be quite impressed with your chosen DIY design compared to the Missions. With a skeptical wife regarding DIY vs store-bought speakers, maybe some of what I talk about in my blogs will help to ease her reservations. I worked at that audio emporium for 20 years, so having a behind-the-counter perspective has afforded me a knowledge level & viewpoint that most don't have the opportunity to get. Keep asking questions, even if they seem redundant or too simple. I had a whole bunch when I first found this forum over 11 years ago, but because I took these gents advice, my family & friends and I get to enjoy much better sound quality every day. My focus is on music only, with my own 2-channel system. The Madisound stuff with the pre-built cabinets, or the Usher here at PE, would be a great choice...no woodworking/tools/cutting involved. Don't overlook the knock-down kits from Erich, which coincide with Paul's design, either. If you're comfortable with gluing up some panels. The TriTrix knock-down kit is also budget-friendly. There's a lot of choices, sometimes the most difficult part is choosing one. Good luck and hope to see and hear more from you. Be careful, as this speaker-building thing can get "addictive", especially when you get done and realize what you've been missing all these years with the various OEM speakers you've heard. If you were close to me here in Washington state, you'd be more than welcome to come by and hear some of the DIY designs I've put together. Countless times I've had people bring their store-bought speakers over, thinking that there's no way I can build speakers that sound better than their favorite brand-name. I end up putting together a DIY design for them. When all they've heard is some retail brands, it gets to be quite eye-opening for those previous nay-sayers. The guys here won't steer you wrong. I believe the Usher kits from PE come with the baffle already cut and recessed for the drivers. But call PE to confirm that. Great to have you on "board".

John A.

[John_Frum]

If I was in your situation, I would go with the TriTrix and the BIC Formula subwoofer.

TriTrix


BIC Formula

[jcpahman77]

^^^This^^^

I just finished assembling the second of my TriTrix TL's. For all the money I've spent on HT over the years it feels wasted today. These are easily the best speakers in their class and an excellent first foray into DIY. Music sound effortless and on classical pieces they dig low enough for me to be happy without my subwoofer on.

I've opted to build a pair of subwoofers to use as stands, and I got the drivers I plan on using on buyout here, so it was win-win for me. The Tri-Trix really don't require much skill. My best advice would be to have a friend help, buy 4-6 clamps and BE PATIENT. If you rush, it will show. Oh, and whatever you do, DO NOT listen to these things until you're ready to be done, that was probably my biggest mistake, I wired one up early on and so wanted to be done that I hurried along instead of taking the time step by step to make sure I was doing quality work.