50-75' Signal or Speaker Cables?

[Randy L]

As I am pondering a system option for my VERY portable PA to be used exclusively for wedding ceremonies, I'm at a crossroads on whether to use a powered mixer and passive 10" PA's or run powered speakers.

I've used 50' speaker cables (12 awg) for years without any noticeable degradation in sound or "punch", but feel extending past that might be pushing it. I do foresee the potential that I may be set up a good 70' out of the way from my speakers on occsasions, depending on the setup. So I'm thinking the XLR signal cables would be the smarter way to go. After all, 100' snakes in PA applications are commonplace.

Opinions?

[Sydney]

As far as speaker runs: I use the % of voltage drop incurred by the wire as a general guideline.
Signal level is higher impedance for the design purpose of longer runs.

[killersoundz]

Good little article you might wanna read, also has guidelines about length...

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[billfitzmaurice]

After all, 100' snakes in PA applications are commonplace.

That's because mics and line level devices driving high impedance loads don't have major problems with capacitance, inductance and resistance. Amps driving low impedance speaker loads do, which is why pros always keep the amps as close as possible to the speakers.

[killersoundz]

That's because mics and line level devices driving high impedance loads don't have major problems with capacitance, inductance and resistance. Amps driving low impedance speaker loads do, which is why pros always keep the amps as close as possible to the speakers.

I've done sound at a small bar venue here in akron call Musica (that's actually pretty nice overall) but they have the power amps set up in the mixing booth LOL, so there are like 100ft speaker cables going up to the mains. Big face in palm situation there. There was also another guy who did sound at 'evolution skatepark' here when they would have shows, he would send the power for the speakers back to the stage from the powered mixer through the stage snake!!! That's like 100ft of 26 gauge wire!! Ahhhhhhhh. You could clearly hear that it made the speakers sound like poo.

[charlielaub]

You could use powered speakers and connect back to the mixer via wireless audio. There are several options, but most use unbalanced connectors.

-Charlie

[Randy L]

I was considering a wireless TX/RX for that, and might definately be worth considering in the not too distant future, but right now, my budget isn't going to allow it.

When I also upgrade my lighting to DMX fixtures, I will seriosuly be considering wireless for them too.

[Randy L]

I think I will get powered cabs. Any recommendations for a nice sounding powered cab with 10" woofer and compression horn? I want small so it's VERY easy to Grab-N-Go...

While we're on this subject, what's a nice 4-6 channel (small) mixer with nice built-in effects (delay, reverb, etc) and EQ? I see a portable CD player, maybe an Ipod, and 2 wireless mics being connected to it.

[AMC]

I am a bit confused, you said "used exclusively for wedding ceremonies" and yet your worried about signal loss from the line? Based on your statements of very portable, and not running much music, I would think a powered mixer would be more then adequate. Not saying it's the only, or best way to go, but don't count it out, you may find just the right system.

[Randy L]

AMC,
Many of the wedding ceremonies are outdoors, and in many instances, require the DJ to be some distance away to be out of sight (and the wedding pictures). Yet, the speakers in most cases should be somewhat close to the location of the bride & groom so the sound comes from their direction. This very well, may require the mixer (and me) to be a good 50 - 75 feet from the furthest speaker.

I've looked at using my QSC K10, but I don't want to have to stand up (or worse, walk to) and make adjustments on the back of the speaker, thus my decision for a mixer.

So it seems to be a decision of heavier speakers (powered), but lightweight mixer, and lightweight 75' patch cords, but the need for 75' power cords for the speakers......or lighter passive speakers, heavier powered mixer, heavier 12AWG 75' speaker cables.

Another bonus I realized for the powered speaker (if I go this way, which I am leaning towards) is that I can use them as fills for my current setup as needed (2 QSC K10's and two of the woofer cabs using the Kappalite 3015LF's for the lows (fed through a driverack PX for processing and actively crossed). I could then just run the signal cable jumped off the back of the K10's to the fills.

A third option could be to use just one of the line array PA cabs I'm working on...IF...it turns out to be very nice sounding and easy to carry around. This would need to be fed by a powered mixer.

[AMC]

OK, I guess I'm still confused. Is this just for the wedding ceremonies, i.e speech, or will it provide the music afterwards as well? Either way, I totally get the mixer, would seem a necessity, not an option.

[billfitzmaurice]

A third option could be to use just one of the line array PA cabs I'm working on...IF...it turns out to be very nice sounding and easy to carry around. This would need to be fed by a powered mixer.

The best option is a non-powered mixer, and either on-board amps or an amp rack kept close enough to the speakers to run no more than 30 foot cables. You do not want to use 75 footers, no matter what the gauge.

[Randy L]

Bill,
That pretty much sums it up...

AMC, I gotcha now. As far as music, it should be typical wedding ceremony music. I'm sure I will (at times) play a instrumental track for a singer. After the ceremony's over, I quickly pack the gear up and we all will move indoors to the reception where I have my DJ setup for the partying. Thus the importance of making the system light and portable to allow a single-trip-haul. From what I've seen in the past, a pair of quality 10" 2-ways is more than sufficient for the minimal bass notes that will be required. Might even consider a very well designed and built 8" 2-way if the low end will extend down to the 70hz range.

[Sydney]

I'm at a crossroads on whether to use a powered mixer and passive 10" PA's or run powered speakers.
After all, 100' snakes in PA applications are commonplace.
Opinions?

IMO There are too many downsides to powered mixers for most purposes.
And the experience that "Killer" related ( using a snake for signal and power ) is one that's all too common/familiar. I avoid this practice like the plague.

[Paul O]

IMO There are too many downsides to powered mixers for most purposes.

+1
I'll take powered speakers every time over a powered mixer, the EQ and more importantly protection circuitry is where it belongs.. inside the speaker where it can't be defeated or tampered with.

There are several entry level PA format mixers on the market now with built-in effects, A&H, Soundcraft, Mackie, and Yamaha all have offerings in the 6-14 input range. Behringer also plays in this market but their products are not of the same quality as the others with many showing mechanical problems within a year of use.... or less, electronically and sonically they're "fine" but if you keep losing channels from broken sliders, pots, or switches what good is it.

[killersoundz]

For some reason I have a little grudge against powered PA speakers. I know in theory bi-amping is ideal but I feel like for the price tag some of the powered speakers out there are selling for it's almost a too good to be true situation. I am very skeptical of the quality or 'amount' of amp they're putting in there for the price tag, often with ridiculous claims like we have two 1000 watt amps in this...

I'd still rather have amps in a rack in my opinion it's easier, less cables to run.

[Paul O]

For some reason I have a little grudge against powered PA speakers. I'd still rather have amps in a rack in my opinion it's easier, less cables to run.

I have both passive and powered now but I felt the same way until I got some powered speakers of my own, and now it's a no brainer for some situations. It's a good time to jump onto the bandwagon actually, digital amplifiers have come into their own and even low end powered speakers now have DSP processing built-in, so the sound quality and levels that can be achieved with a really lightweight cabinet(25lbs) are simply well above what can be done with similar sized passives and a basic amp/EQ combo. There's still a place for passives but for compact performance and simplicity nothing beats a powered box.

[Sydney]

The wire guide killer linked:
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Shows important considerations:
Wire has an amperage capacity ( ampacity ) and a larger cross sectional area means greater capacity.
And a higher load impedance allows greater length ( because current is reduced ).

I use separate mixers/amps and un-powered speakers because of flexibility, scalability and because there are a lot more commercial offerings - to take advantage of competitive and reduced cost.

[Randy L]

Each definately has their useful purpose in the PA world. Speaking of the new digital amps, I can't believe Peavey is getting 3000 watts in a 7lb, 1 rack unit amp! Has anyone heard or used any of the IPR amps?

[Sydney]

... I can't believe Peavey is getting 3000 watts in a 7lb, 1 rack unit amp!

That makes two of us - If it's powered off a 120V 20A circuit.