Let's say you wanted to do surround sound "RIGHT"...

[Dirk]

I've got some strong opinions, and I've had this screed bumbling around in the back of my head for some time, but I wanted to take the temperature of community before I started writing my manifesto.

Let's assume that you've got an "optimal" home theater space. Small, but rectangular with a door that honestly seals. The dimensions are near-perfect, as well. Let's also assume that, because this room IS somewhat small and we're dealing with "economic downturn" budgets, we'll be keeping the speaker build to about $1500. That number is arbitrary, but it does allow enough room for 2-way or 3-way designs where applicable. Let's also assume that the display is, oh, a standard 55" screen. No projectors here, and we'll need to position the center channel above or below the screen using stands or shelves. Because the room is smallish, the speakers will be near wall boundaries.

What would you build? I'm not saying specific designs, but what TYPE of speaker would you build? Would you do 5-7 identical TMs? Would you do 3-ways across the front? If so, what would you do for the other speakers to maintain timbre? Would you highpass to a sub? Run some as full range? Plop a bunch of 3" full-rangers in boxes and call it a day?

I'm genuinely curious of your opinions--especially heretical ones.

[johnnyrichards]

Personally, I would do a vertical WtmW for the LR, and a horizontal Wt/mW for the center and TM for the surrounds. If the $1500 does not include a subwoofer, I would do the LCR with 8" woofers, something with the Dayton Reference series. $300 per channel is a pretty good budget, and in a smallish room like that, tuning the LR speakers a little "hot" in the bass region should reduce the need for a separate subwoofer.

However, as I rarely advise people on what they should build, take this with a grain of salt.

[Dirk]

We'll keep the subwoofer out of it. This is all hypothetical, so if you had your own man cave, I'm curious to know how you'd outfit it for yourself.

Johnny, how would you handle the crossover to the sub? Run the L/C/R full-range? Most receivers under a grand do not allow different sub crosses. Would you use the "mid" as a midwoof for the surrounds?

[johnnyrichards]

We'll keep the subwoofer out of it. This is all hypothetical, so if you had your own man cave, I'm curious to know how you'd outfit it for yourself.

Johnny, how would you handle the crossover to the sub? Run the L/C/R full-range? Most receivers under a grand do not allow different sub crosses. Would you use the "mid" as a midwoof for the surrounds?

This is how I would outfit it for myself

I would set the LCR to "large", and manually set the subwoofer crossover pretty low. The "M" would be across all five channels, yes - and would probably be in the 5-6" class. The "T" would be a dome capable of a lower crossover point, the RS28F perhaps. The surrounds would be set to "small". Most receivers offer at least this level of bass management.

[mattp]

My man cave (or apartment living room) is composed of two TMWW(6.5") towers for L,R, a WMTMW(5.25") center and TM surrounds using the same T's and M's as everything else. Everything is set to small, towers are crossed at 40Hz, center at 70 and the surrounds at 80. Subs handle 40 and down. I can't imagine changing anything...or needing to.

[iLovPieNCake]

1500$ dollars is a budget I will never have to work with but here goes.

I would make 4 small bookshelf speakers that are high in sensitivity, reach ~70hz but can still be placed in a relatively small box. The lower the box can go the better but box size is more important for placement reasons. If they are ported, have the port in the rear if you have enough space to not place them by any walls. If you don't have the space, seal them. A nice 5" woofer and ribbon tweeter would be my choice.

Next I would build two towers that are MTMs that use those 5" drivers in their most optimal box, again with a port to the rear if they aren't by any walls, otherwise place the port in the front. If the satilites are sealed, I will seal these. I want to use the same woofers and similar crossovers so that all of the speakers sound the same.

The center would be the same as the MTM towers but properly designed for it's horizontal alignment.

Then I would take a Dayton reference sub, probably a 12", cross it over just bellow the 70hz of the small bookshelves, I'm guessing around 6hz bellow but it depends on the slope of the box tuning. I would place it somewhere close but not right next to my sitting area, someplace comfortable. I will use a Parts Express plate amp to be able to adjust power levels and crossover.

Finally I would use a single receiver and a properly build home theater pc with a very good sound card/dac. I would then use the software drivers of the sound card/dac to adjust individual levels and I would always leave the receiver and PC on and hopefully find some way to make it all controllable by 1 remote. It is key to make it easy to use otherwise people wont wanna use it.

This would be my "optimal" home theater setup, I would then just tune every piece properly and I would save a bunch of layouts so I can adjust based on the movie, music or how I am feeling but only when I'm not being lazy.

Full range drivers are appealing but I don't think they will work properly in my box requirements or have as nice of a response a nice 2 way or be as loud. A WMTMW or other complex speaker alignments might seem nicer, but to me, it just makes it more and more complicated and I'm not sure you really get so much more out of it. The lesser drivers the better, but not enough isn't optimal. Now simply having a 2 channel is a whole other story.

[Deward Hastings]

Would you do 5-7 identical TMs?

Absolutely not. Put your money where the signal is . . . along the front wall. Pretty much *anything* will do for what gets put in the surround channels in the overwhelming majority of movies, as long as they don't grossly distort. Do NOT skimp on the center channel . . . that's where all the dialog is, and it's better to have none than a bad one, since with close L and R spacing a phantom center can work surprisingly well.

[contoursvt]

Well my hypothetical answer is actually what I'm going to be doingdown the road for my front, center and rear speakers (just a 5.1) setup. I cant speak for the TV because I've got a projector but I'd go with:

HiVi D5.8 and Dayton RS28 series tweeter in an MTM config for the front and center with the rear being just a single Hivi and tweeter.

I think a setup like this would sound nice in a room thats fairly small.

[Taterworks]

I would build seven identical TMs, and then build woofer cabinets for the front stereo pair (think a WATT/Puppy style TM-over-sub configuration) and add a pair of woofers flanking the center channel TM (which would be oriented vertically). The rear channels would all be monopole.

The tweeters would probably all be large voice coil domes like the Dayton/Morel silk domes, the ScanSpeak 1-1/4" dome, or the Wavecor 1-1/2" dome. (Ideally, it would be the Wavecor with the neo magnet and small faceplate, without ferrofluid). The midbasses would probably be the Usher 7" black Kevlar midbasses, and in sealed enclosures if possible. Then for the woofers, I'd probably use Dayton RS-series 10" drivers. For subs, I'd use two large ones in the front of the room and two smaller ones along the side walls, with competent drivers like the AudioPulse drivers.

I'm making my own head spin here, thinking about the expense.

[Face]

We'll keep the subwoofer out of it. This is all hypothetical, so if you had your own man cave, I'm curious to know how you'd outfit it for yourself.

Including a subwoofer, or multiple subs would be doing it right, regardless if you have a dedicated room or not(I do).

[cjd]

Let's also assume that the display is, oh, a standard 55" screen. No projectors here, and we'll need to position the center channel above or below the screen using stands or shelves.

All this buildup and you throw this crap in the mix? Screw it. I'd not waste any more money on the effort.

------

I have invested a bit more than your budget if you count my sub - otherwise, it's right about there. WMTW's up front (~$350ea), TM's (~$180ea, odd box shape to work better in the room) for 4 channels of surround. RS-180/RS150/27TDFC and RS180/27TDFC. DIY AT screen (~$250 for everything) with DIY anamorphic lens (~$150) for a constant-height setup (41x96.5" curved screen). Projector was $2500 (1080p DLP). Add an Onkyo receiver (only ones that officially do 4ohm) and an Oppo BD player (does subtitle shift and scaling for the constant-height setup). Sub is 4 Tempest-X + 700W in an IB. A little overkill, perhaps. The Onkyo is next up for being replaced, probably 3 monoblocks and 2 2-channel amps + a standalone pre-processor.

[Modmark]

A pair of Natalie P's for the LR channel, a pair of RS180 Modula MT for the surrounds. I would go for a 5.1 system instead of 7.1 to stay under the budget.

No clue on what to use for a center channel, would like to use RS180/RS28A combo in the center channel just to keep the parts similar.

For the subwoofer, I would use the Dayton Audio RSS315HF or maybe the 15" version.

The above choices are not based on being an expert in speaker designs which I am not. Use a proven design and/or proven drivers. I trust designs using Dayton driver far more than some of these exotic boutique speaker manufacturers which seem to be more marketing hype than strong engineering.

And i would keep my Klipsch Quintets just to demo to folks on why you should not buy a theater in a box system.

And suggestion for a center channel?

[ryanbouma]

I would build 3 of these at $200 each:



That's $600. And the front three have good sensitivity and power handling. Will need some external power perhaps if the receiver doesn't like 5ohm minimum.

Then I'd build some surround using that same WG tweeter and 8" silver flute woofer, but only 1 woofer and possibly crossed lower. I know this would change the timber, but for space reasons, and driver summing, I'd save the $ and only use 1 woofer. That would be another $300 for 2 surrounds.

Then I'd take the left over $600 and buy a Berry EP4000 amp, and as many DCS380-4 subs as I can afford (hopefully 4, two dual opposed or 4 individual boxes to smooth response).

Possibly a minidsp or 2 to eq the room, or use active instead of passive on the LCR.

Oh and yes, they would all be highpassed to a sub, so set to SMALL. All of them. Probably 80hz, but that would depend on measurements.

[fbov]

I like vertical arrays for multichannel applications, MTM, WMTW approaches, because they give very good response in the listening area with reduced room interaction.

All speakers should have near equal sensitivity and comparable power handling. I don't want my AVR sending 2-3x more power to the surrounds because I used low sensitivity speakers, especially if they can't handle as much power as the other speakers. No weak links.

If you plan to listen to multichannel music, I'd recommend all identical speakers, since you never know where the sound engineer will put your seat in the sound field.

If your multichannel program is front-focused and sends little power to the surrounds (eg. movies), I would make the surrounds in-wall TMs (to go with my MTMs), so you match sensitivity (no-BSC TM = full BSC MTM). You also gain additional room interaction from the monopole design, so apparent source width and envelopment are maximized. (I like Omni's for this, but they fail for sensitivity and power handling).

I would also audition supplemental channels - rear(s), front-wide and front-high - to see which, if any, add to the aural experience. I like front-wide, but then I put the TV on the long wall. I suspect a short-wall placement might favor rears. YMMV.

I know you didn't want specific designs, but by way of a cost estimate... NatP MTMs are $200, plus $350 for the Modual MTM CC, so a 7-channel set hits your budget within component selection tolerance. TM surrounds are only going to save ~$100, making it more of an aesthetic choice - music vs movies - than a financial one. 3-ways are inherently more expensive, so you'd either have to drop down to 5.1 or use less expensive designs. Given NatP's are already a "budget" design, there will be some reduction in capability or quality, unless cost is a soft requirement.

BTW, I have the CC and 2 NatP's done, 2 more getting shellac, and I'm still playing with surround options.

HAve fun,
Frank

[hershey]

I would build seven identical TMs, and then build woofer cabinets for the front stereo pair (think a WATT/Puppy style TM-over-sub configuration) and add a pair of woofers flanking the center channel TM (which would be oriented vertically). The rear channels would all be monopole.

The tweeters would probably all be large voice coil domes like the Dayton/Morel silk domes, the ScanSpeak 1-1/4" dome, or the Wavecor 1-1/2" dome. (Ideally, it would be the Wavecor with the neo magnet and small faceplate, without ferrofluid). The midbasses would probably be the Usher 7" black Kevlar midbasses, and in sealed enclosures if possible. Then for the woofers, I'd probably use Dayton RS-series 10" drivers. For subs, I'd use two large ones in the front of the room and two smaller ones along the side walls, with competent drivers like the AudioPulse drivers.

I'm making my own head spin here, thinking about the expense.

That sounds an awful lot like this:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=215388

[fastbike1]

Not targeting Matt, but this brings up a question I often have about many HT builds: Why does everyone feel the need for some uber (e.g. WMTMW, WWMTMWW, etc) center. Even if set to large, the center should be getting a fairly narrow frequency range that shouldn't really require a three way.

Is this a "mine is bigger" deal? Really curious, not trolling. Similar issue for folks that felt the need to use Mini Statements as surround. "Just because" answers are fine, I'm just trying to see if I've missed some technical point.

My man cave (or apartment living room) is composed of two TMWW(6.5") towers for L,R, a WMTMW(5.25") center and TM surrounds using the same T's and M's as everything else. Everything is set to small, towers are crossed at 40Hz, center at 70 and the surrounds at 80. Subs handle 40 and down. I can't imagine changing anything...or needing to.

[rpb]

Assuming the room is about 12' x 16' and not overly dead acoustically, here's what I would do.

Good 6.5" TM speakers for the front 3 speakers. I'd go sealed, except the sub.
Budget design 5.25" TM for the surrounds.
Decent 15" ported sub.

Highpass at 80 hz. If possible, maybe highpass at 60 hz. EQ for the sub mandatory.

[rpb]

Not targeting Matt, but this brings up a question I often have about many HT builds: Why does everyone feel the need for some uber (e.g. WMTMW, WWMTMWW, etc) center. Even if set to large, the center should be getting a fairly narrow frequency range that shouldn't really require a three way.

Is this a "mine is bigger" deal? Really curious, not trolling. Similar issue for folks that felt the need to use Mini Statements as surround. "Just because" answers are fine, I'm just trying to see if I've missed some technical point.

For dialog, I prefer a simple TM. I've used a 5.5" recently. Some people will say that a bigger center will have more impact. It probably does, but I don't miss it. I had some $10 surrounds for a long time. I sold them to my neighbor and now I use whatever I have laying around at the moment. If I watched a really good action movie more than twice a year, I might be inclined to up the quality a little. There doesn't seem to be many new movies that are a feast for the ears. Maybe I'm just out of the loop currently.

[bwaslo]

If you don't mind digging through the used market, I'd get something like older Advents or the like and Econowave them, using the QSC waveguides that PE sells. You wouldn't really need a center channel, toed-in LR waveguides make a very good phantom center. For the backs, the same if you can find enough boxes, else make Ewaves using 8 inchers. And separate subs, absolutely, at least two.

[OlderMongrel]

Check this out. Also, back the URL up and look at some of the other articles.

"Design considerations for an idealized domestic surround sound listening
space"

http://www.moultonlabs.com/images/pd..._idealized.pdf

John