Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

[AMC]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

If the cabinet is being crossed at 100hz why do you have ports anyways? I guess you can tune it real high like 80hz or something if you want, but you can/should do that on the baffle.

+1, I was think the same thing.

[AMC]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

i am looking for a top cabinet design i can use as a single in smaller places and double them up when outside.

I would have to agree that a side by side arrangement is not a good idea. Why not try something like this, the design you have now, but with a slightly wider dispersion horn. When you need more, for outside, add a 2 X 12 only cab to the top, and flip a switch to add about 3 db to the horn. Basically switching from a TWW to a WWTWW. Short of line arrays, adding cabs is difficult at best.

Also, have not actually listened to them, but the new eminence IMPERO™ 12A looks real nice. Don't know what the price will be yet.

n00bs...

Those things on the jack are NL4s with metal flanges.

You should read more, comment less.

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

Also, have not actually listened to them, but the new eminence IMPERO™ 12A looks real nice.

I wouldn't use them in a cab that goes on a pole. They also need a low crossover, like 800Hz. A bit of an odd duck really, unless you really need an 1100w thermal rating.

[AMC]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

I wouldn't use them in a cab that goes on a pole. They also need a low crossover, like 800Hz. A bit of an odd duck really, unless you really need an 1100w thermal rating.

Their graph shows them going out nicely to 3K, but I guess that is where a graph line has it's limitations. Looked like a nice mid bass but not if it only goes to 800.

On a different thread, someone mentioned the Faital Pro 12PR300. Again I have not used it. But it sure specs out nice, albeit a bit pricy. Has anyone used any of the inexpensive B&C neo woofers? They look like a steal at times.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-694

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

Their graph shows them going out nicely to 3K

With low sensitivity. The cones have a very high mass, and that piper must be paid.

[Mike C]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

My Double 12 X 2 inch cabinets are the same basic concept as you looking at, 60 x 40 JBL 2385 horns, EV ND6x drivers and B&C 12 PE32 cones. For me that combination works well. Well braced, Sealed cabinets, non trapezoid.

[killersoundz]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

Their graph shows them going out nicely to 3K, but I guess that is where a graph line has it's limitations. Looked like a nice mid bass but not if it only goes to 800.

On a different thread, someone mentioned the Faital Pro 12PR300. Again I have not used it. But it sure specs out nice, albeit a bit pricy. Has anyone used any of the inexpensive B&C neo woofers? They look like a steal at times.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=294-694

Yeah as Bill said the low efficiency of that Impero driver makes it practically useless for 'main' cabinets, unless you're using it for a horn...

[scottcameron]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

it appears there is really no good way to stack multiple speakers. in my situation i'll be using subs, either TH-18s or the CBEs (cyclops), and crossing them at 100hz (or somewhere in that neighborhood). i don't know if i would want to stack another 2-12 on top.

i put this together a while back. this concept seems to be presented with several issues. height, phase, etc. what do you guys think?

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

it appears there is really no good way to stack multiple speakers.

Your picture shows one way that does work. You just have to design the speaker correctly. Trap cabs never should have been created in the first place; they only came about because manufacturers bowed to the will of buyers who insisted on them. This is a good tutorial series on why we had to put up with bad sound for 30 years:

http://www.gtaust.com/filter/05/07.shtml

But don't stack mains over subs. That's another practice encouraged by manufacturers even though they know it's wrong, pandering to make sales to consumers who don't know that.

[AMC]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

But don't stack mains over subs. That's another practice encouraged by manufacturers even though they know it's wrong, pandering to make sales to consumers who don't know that.

This isn't just a marketing thing. The practical side is those subs make a good, stable base for the stack, much better then any pole system. And if you trying to be VERY portable, double use items (subs and speaker base) helps save room. I know it's not perfect, nothing is, but it's not without it's merits either.

As to the design itself, not knowing the specifics, but be careful that the mids are not spaced too far from the woofs.

[Paul O]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

why we had to put up with bad sound for 30 years:

As much as I agree in principle that vertical arrays are technically better than splayed horizontal arrays, I have to say I have heard many more bad sounding vertical arrays in the last 10 years than I did splayed stacks the 30 years before. Yes vertical arrays produce more horizontal coverage but it's debatable(IMO) if overall intelligibility is better, I don't remember every hearing so much comb filtering from the old stacks as I have from large scale line arrays.

[madmallard]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

when I saw the FooFighters last year in ATL, they had some flown arrays of about 10 stacks. Some were a bigger arc pointing down toward the floor and others were more subtle to the rest of house.

As near as I could tell, all the subs were under the stage.

After re-educating myself around here last year, I've made sure to corner load subs since, but after going to that show, hearing their setup, and noticing not one house speaker on the stage that I could see.... and then at the end of the night seeing them wheel out at least 12 cabs of dual 18s from underneath, drove home some of the fundamentals.

[Brian Steele]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

This isn't just a marketing thing. The practical side is those subs make a good, stable base for the stack, much better then any pole system. And if you trying to be VERY portable, double use items (subs and speaker base) helps save room. I know it's not perfect, nothing is, but it's not without it's merits either.

The extra weight could also help to cut down "panel flex" in the subwoofer cabinet .

[Sydney]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

... I have to say I have heard many more bad sounding vertical arrays in the last 10 years than I did splayed stacks the 30 years before...

My experience is closer to yours Paul. I've heard examples of arrays that sound bad because they were not implemented correctly. Just as any system will sound bad if used/placed/operated incorrectly.

[billfitzmaurice]

Re: Dual 12" + 2" Comp designs

This isn't just a marketing thing. The practical side is those subs make a good, stable base for the stack, much better then any pole system..

That's one of the justifications. but in the vast majority of cases having subs and tops within the same footprint results in the worst possible results from the subs. This acoustical engineering fact should be second nature to anyone and everyone who works with sound gear professionally.

As much as I agree in principle that vertical arrays are technically better than splayed horizontal arrays, I have to say I have heard many more bad sounding vertical arrays in the last 10 years than I did splayed stacks the 30 years before.

In some 100 major concerts I monitored during the transition era from cluster to line arrays the best cluster arrays weren't as good as the worst line arrays. The best line arrays are stunning, the worst cluster arrays gosh awful. If you heard a bad line array the fault was the operator, not the gear.