Dayton Designer Series: DS175-8 build quality review.

[Pallas]

I think I'd feel let down if a 'paper' Reference series midbass driver had 'just' a paper cone, or 'just' a poly cone -- there are manufacturers out there who are pushing the materials engineering of paper-composite cones even further, like Venture Audio which uses an abaca fiber pulp and graphite-powder composite, and SB Acoustics who use a reed-paper emulsion.

Exotic made-for-marketing names don't mean better performance, of course.

I believe one thing that makes possible such high-quality, inexpensive drivers like the Dayton RS, the Zaph ZA14, and the Fountek FW series is that the aluminum cones are very inexpensive. Think about it; you take a stock roll of sheet aluminum, and stamp it. Done. Other cones require specialized materials and molds and curing processes, not to mention damping compounds.

I could be wrong, but I have a strong hunch that, once you change the cone material to something more expensive to produce, the price goes up dramatically.

Agreed. The other factor is QC. It strikes me that the mass, etc. of cones made from a sheet of metal is much less expensive/time-consuming to QC than cones made from a dried composite slurry. I'd expect many more rejected parts in the latter case.

That said, the cone I'd like to see is a woven poly. Dan Wiggins was talking about the great properties of those way back in the days of the Basslist, and it seems that some products (Seas, CSS) are finally using them.

[Whitneyville1]

Poly reinforced with something like Nomex might be an option. Some of the new resin composites are possibilities too. The bottom line is what the Chinese can mass produce effectively and cheaply with good quality control. Believe me, Dayton is painfully aware of this. Dayton can't build $65 6.5" mid-woofers when Peerless does. "Life iz 'ard an' din' chu die an' go to 'Ell. I can deal wid dat."-Izzy Moreno, "Miami Vice"

[scottq]

Thanks for the close-ups and and more detailed descriptions!

I have it on good authority, that the RS28F took a *LOT* of nudging to happen, and the idea was rejected more than once. The DIY masses were lucky it even came out at all, and it was due to the mantra I stated above as being their reasoning for not doing it initially. It just didn't fit the design/line criteria. Being that fact, it'll be harder to get that point across for more drivers, unless there are more than 4-5 people wanting them anyway.

I'm not saying the premise is not viable, but I am saying that the forthcoming release of such a product better not have you inhaling without exhaling in hopes for it.

I also suspect that Dayton may try a higher-end (higher than RS) product down the road, since they're Klippeling everything now. It wouldn't surprise me.

Later,
Wolf

Your earlier point for the mantra of the RS series is certainly valid, and I'm sure your source is indeed good authority. The problem is, they've opened the door by creating the RS28F. They kinda' shot themselves in the foot here.

I think most people care more about what's inside than the name, whether its "Reference" or otherwise. There's clearly a strong desire for an alternative, better cone (whether its a material change or a different process resulting in better performance) mated to the RS motor, myself included. And, there's no doubt that stamped/pressed aluminum is a low-cost, repeatable material for cones. I think the problem is that people want the same price-point with a more sophisticated cone; obviously, that's not gonna' happen. PE's in business, not charity.

Nonetheless, I think the new Designer Series is a great addition to the "library" and will produce great bang-for-buck.

[Jay1]

Now I'm curious what the price difference is between an aluminum cone, and the carbon fiber/paper cone Usher uses on so many drivers? PE has a relationship with Usher right?

[Wolf]

Now I'm curious what the price difference is between an aluminum cone, and the carbon fiber/paper cone Usher uses on so many drivers? PE has a relationship with Usher right?

You do happen to remember the Euro Series, correct? That was an Usher-made midbass. The carbon-paper thing has already been tried by Dayton, and apparently it flopped, or something else precluded its continuation.

Later,
Wolf

[Jay1]

You do happen to remember the Euro Series, correct? That was an Usher-made midbass. The carbon-paper thing has already been tried by Dayton, and apparently it flopped, or something else precluded its continuation.

Later,
Wolf

Weren't those just a cheap knock off of the Usher's? I can't remember if they had any size drivers besides 7" and a tweeter?

[Wolf]

Weren't those just a cheap knock off of the Usher's? I can't remember if they had any size drivers besides 7" and a tweeter?

That's all they had. I wouldn't call them a cheap knockoff, as they did perform rather well.

Later,
Wolf

[scottq]

You do happen to remember the Euro Series, correct? That was an Usher-made midbass. The carbon-paper thing has already been tried by Dayton, and apparently it flopped, or something else precluded its continuation.

I had 4 of the Euro series 7's until my cat destroyed them by tipping over one of the MTM towers causing them to land face down on the floor; a full 4ft tower coming crashing down, face-planting the drivers. The other pair was then filleted by her claws. It was a bad day...

I liked them fine, but I don't believe they used Usher's "high end" motor. I tried getting replacement surrounds for them, but PE didn't sell/offer them and they were discontinued by then. I feel they presented a good value.

Usher is not about to put all their goodies in a lower cost design, sell it to PE at wholesale, and allow PE to then sell essentially the same product as theirs at a significantly lower price. Not good business practices...

The Euro Series does encourage the fact that these types of cones can be done at a "reasonable" cost...

That's all they had. I wouldn't call them a cheap knockoff, as they did perform rather well.

While "cheap" is relative, I would say they were most certainly a cheap knockoff. I don't say this disparagingly; they certainly had a lot of things where it counts. Yes, they performed pretty well, but they were nowhere near the performance of Usher's premium products nor the Scan Speak originals.

I think they were overlooked so often because they did indeed have the aura of cheap knock-offs.... Kind of like the Dynaudio knock-offs (Dynavox) they carry. I tried these years ago too, much to my dismay (What a waste of money - IMO...) Quite honestly, the low end is better on the RS series... Despite the spec's a features, bass was not the ES180's strong suit. They excelled in midrange performance, but got very sloppy in the midbass and bass regions.

[Wolf]

Usher is not about to put all their goodies in a lower cost design, sell it to PE at wholesale, and allow PE to then sell essentially the same product as theirs at a significantly lower price. Not good business practices...

They basically already do that, despite the principles. That's how OEM'ing can work sometimes.

The Euro Series does encourage the fact that these types of cones can be done at a "reasonable" cost...

Agreed.

Kind of like the Dynaudio knock-offs (Dynavox) they carry. I tried these years ago too, much to my dismay (What a waste of money - IMO...)

If you think those are something proprietary to PE, you need to look harder. Dynavox is not a house-brand, and they perform rather well in my experience with the 5", and what Shawn has done on the 6.5". I guess we'll disagree on these. I would not call these knockoffs, except in the usage of the Dynaudio-style cones.

Quite honestly, the low end is better on the RS series... Despite the spec's a features, bass was not the ES180's strong suit. They excelled in midrange performance, but got very sloppy in the midbass and bass regions.

I suppose that is true. The bass was strong however. It's not Revelator bass, but it wasn't poor either.

Later,
Wolf

[scottq]

They basically already do that, despite the principles. That's how OEM'ing can work sometimes.

Yes, but "OEM'ing" doesn't get sold next to their other products in the catalog at a lower price - its a specialized contract with the customer for their application and only sold to that (and other) specific customers for their product(s). We get left over OEM items sometimes made available on buyout, but that's not "normal" practice; its just clearing out inventory.

"OEM'ing" (don't really like this term, as its a misnomer in this case) is usually very minor tweaks to an existing production design; its appealing to large customers because it allows them to get all the benefits of the "high-end" design that's already tooled, and they make a few tweaks for their particular application. The Dayton Euro Series were significantly different than the Usher/Scan Speak variety; I would not classify that experience as "OEM'ing." I would call it a custom design to meet a price-point that wasn't properly evaluated, modified/fixed, and executed before going market in order for it to be successful product.

If you think those are something proprietary to PE, you need to look harder. Dynavox is not a house-brand, and they perform rather well in my experience with the 5", and what Shawn has done on the 6.5". I guess we'll disagree on these. I would not call these knockoffs, except in the usage of the Dynaudio-style cones.

I didn't say it was a PE proprietary item; just that PE carries them. Wasn't trying to imply they were, sorry if it was confusing. The implication I was going for was that they do appear to be Dynaudio knock-offs (not just the cone); I say this in reference to perception, not necessarily reality. I don't find the Dynaudio stuff particularly good either, but found the Dynavox stuff lacking in a lot of ways. The tweeter is awful... just awful (IMO). So yes, I guess we have to agree to disagree on our "good" or "bad" quality determinations with the Dynavox stuff.

I suppose that is true. The bass was strong however. It's not Revelator bass, but it wasn't poor either.

My criticism was referring to the quality of the bass, not (perceived) strength/quantity. It was not as tight and well-controlled as Usher and Scan-Speak products. I still think the Euro Series represented a good value, and I was sad to see them go.

[Wolf]

The Dayton Euro Series were significantly different than the Usher/Scan Speak variety; I would not classify that experience as "OEM'ing." I would call it a custom design to meet a price-point that wasn't properly evaluated, modified/fixed, and executed before going market in order for it to be successful product.

I was not talking about the Euro Series in that statement, but Usher still applied.

The tweeter is awful... just awful (IMO). So yes, I guess we have to agree to disagree on our "good" or "bad" quality determinations with the Dynavox stuff.

I've not heard or used it, what didn't you like?

Later,
Wolf

[Leroy R]

Did you get the measurements on this driver or are you still breaking it in?