Subs

[igmeredith]

Hey I am trying to set up subs for a youth group, we are looking at two dual boxes and can afford roughly 80-100 per driver. would theseDaytons work well as subs? Can they hit 30hz with authority? We have a crown ce-2000 to drive them so power isn't an issue. Thanks!

[isaeagle4031]

Do you really NEED 30Hz? Most music does not go below 35 and most PA styled subs are not tuned that low. How about looking into a tuba 24 or maybe 36? This will invariably be a much better use of funds.

[AMC]

After a quick model of that woof, it would be almost impossible to get 30Hz out of it, and authority at 30 Hz is out of the question. And with a 6mm X-MAx it would be limited to low wattage use in any case. A box of about 9 cu ft, loaded with 2, would reach about 40Hz, but you would still have displacement limitations.

first a question, is this for live music or pre-recorded music?

For pre-recorded music, up your driver budget to about 200 each, and build a set (2) of Tuba-30 or 36 as recommended above.
For live music, up your driver budget to about 200 each, and build a set (2) of Titan-39 or 48.

The titans particularly would be my best bet, very loud, and durable. A $100 per driver budget will just not get it done here, but $400 total might be fine.

[igmeredith]

So if tuned higher would they work? or are there better options within the budget? I'm open to suggestions but strong bass output is requested. I'm just getting started in pa, I come from more a home and car audio background. thanks for the input!

[igmeredith]

Currently our "sub" is four DUAL av 12in car subs with 2 cu ft each ported to roughly 35hz. They are series/parallel wired for 4ohms and are running off one channel of the crown amp. In a large room they make a measured 105 DB throughout the room before major distortion sets in.

[Chris Roemer]

Hey I am trying to set up subs for a youth group, we are looking at two dual boxes and can afford roughly 80-100 per driver. would theseDaytons work well as subs? Can they hit 30hz with authority? We have a crown ce-2000 to drive them so power isn't an issue. Thanks!

They'll probably do 40Hz in about 3.5 vented cu.ft. per driver.

[igmeredith]

After a quick model of that woof, it would be almost impossible to get 30Hz out of it, and authority at 30 Hz is out of the question. And with a 6mm X-MAx it would be limited to low wattage use in any case. A box of about 9 cu ft, loaded with 2, would reach about 40Hz, but you would still have displacement limitations.

first a question, is this for live music or pre-recorded music?

For pre-recorded music, up your driver budget to about 200 each, and build a set (2) of Tuba-30 or 36 as recommended above.
For live music, up your driver budget to about 200 each, and build a set (2) of Titan-39 or 48.

The titans particularly would be my best bet, very loud, and durable. A $100 per driver budget will just not get it done here, but $400 total might be fine.

We use the subs for both live and prerecorded and concerts with local bands. So if we use two drivers will we have enough output? Would there be any advantage to non pa subs? we don't need 130db, just 115-120 ish. Again thank you for your help!

[igmeredith]

They'll probably do 40Hz in about 3.5 vented cu.ft. per driver.

In your opinion, would this be an effective set up?

[AMC]

We use the subs for both live and prerecorded and concerts with local bands. So if we use two drivers will we have enough output? Would there be any advantage to non pa subs? we don't need 130db, just 115-120 ish. Again thank you for your help!

Quality woofers in a appropriate enclosure will always be better then questionable woofers in a sub-standard enclosure. As for total output, 2 should get you near that mark, but that depends on the size of the room. IIRC, each titan cab is capable of about 122 at 1 meter, but my memory is not great, so you should look that up.

non-pa subs will just not have enough output, as your experiencing now.

[igmeredith]

IIRC, each titan cab is capable of about 122 at 1 meter, but my memory is not great, so you should look that up.

Ok I will run this by those in charge, maybe we can stretch the budget for these. Thanks for the input! it has been very helpful

[AMC]

In your opinion, would this be an effective set up?

when I modeled it, the best I could do was using a 8 cu ft box EACH, I get a f3 of about 40Hz. They will be displacement limited to (guessing) 100 watts.

For comparison, the Titan 48 has a 1 watt sensitivity of about 105 (IIRC), Meaning, all 4 of those driver would be about equal to 1 15 inch in a titan 48.

[igmeredith]

It appears you have to pay for the plans for the titan and tuba subs? Is that true?

[AMC]

It appears you have to pay for the plans for the titan and tuba subs? Is that true?

Correct, and while I don't get paid for saying it, they are worth the money. They are cheap, all things considered, and they are more then just plans.

[Paul O]

Hey I am trying to set up subs for a youth group, we are looking at two dual boxes and can afford roughly 80-100 per driver. !

If your driver budget is $400 you're going to be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY further ahead with 2 real pro audio subs than you would be with 4 pieces of crap, so my suggestion is to get a set of PV Lowriders and build 7 cu/ft boxes for them, they'll take everything the CE can muster all night long and come back for more the next night.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=294-301

[igmeredith]

Sorry about all the dumb questions, just as the only semi experienced sound guy, I got placed in charge of this operation. And I would stress the semi part of the semi-experienced. I love audio, and I want to learn everything I can about speaker design, but I do have lots to learn.

[igmeredith]

If your driver budget is $400 you're going to be WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY further ahead with 2 real pro audio subs than you would be with 4 pieces of crap, so my suggestion is to get a set of PV Lowriders and build 7 cu/ft boxes for them, they'll take everything the CE can muster all night long and come back for more the next night.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=294-301

I'll keep those in mind if the titans plan get axed thanks!

[igmeredith]

Would a Jensen Imperial horn style sub work? I have heard that they are very smooth with high output.

[BElstro]

I think there are 3 things that absolutely must be addressed before there can be any right answer.
1) what is the capability of the overall current system (you did state some SPL averages, but is this the system currently, or an average spl goal you think would be adequate just for the subs)? Keep in mind that most subs are averaging 6-12db hotter than the high packs.
2)Is the system a fixed, semi-mobile or mobile (which can even mean brought out and put away each night at the extreme). LF horns are big heavy things that you will need help moving (I'm sure you can get some kids to help... but there's always a worst case scenario, which I faced myself too many times so I switched).
3)What is the experience of the operator (will it always be you)? Horns are great- increased output, less distortion, etc.... Horns are also bad- you cant hear the distortion... until your driver is gone, there will be needed added processing (EQ and time alignment typically.. there goes the budget), etc. Normally 99% of everyone out there wont be as kind (or half as much) as you are. NO SYSTEM IS BULLETPROOF.

35Hz is not necessary for live use, and most wont miss the frequencies missing if you have a F3 of 45, but 40 is a good compromise if you must. Start by looking at some well known sub response charts and you'll probably come up with some different ideas about bass that you didnt have before. I didnt like how that driver simme'd either, but the 15 simmed out nice and I used it for my live sound subs (have doubled as DJ a few times, they're HP'd at 40hz and no-one misses a thing). I use two duals and four singles (all built to the same spec, never really tested em out too well, but they play excellent together), each driver receiving 300w. This is a 300 cap room 15x100'. I've run sound for bands from LA, Chicago, Nashville, Boston (MA), and every local band you can shake a stick at. NOT A SINGLE BE HAS COMPLAINED (or kicked me off my board for that matter

[billfitzmaurice]

Would a Jensen Imperial horn style sub work? I have heard that they are very smooth with high output.

You heard wrong. Woefully obsolete, as are similar 'scoops'.

[igmeredith]

I think there are 3 things that absolutely must be addressed before there can be any right answer.
1) what is the capability of the overall current system (you did state some SPL averages, but is this the system currently, or an average spl goal you think would be adequate just for the subs)? Keep in mind that most subs are averaging 6-12db hotter than the high packs.
2)Is the system a fixed, semi-mobile or mobile (which can even mean brought out and put away each night at the extreme). LF horns are big heavy things that you will need help moving (I'm sure you can get some kids to help... but there's always a worst case scenario, which I faced myself too many times so I switched).
3)What is the experience of the operator (will it always be you)? Horns are great- increased output, less distortion, etc.... Horns are also bad- you cant hear the distortion... until your driver is gone, there will be needed added processing (EQ and time alignment typically.. there goes the budget), etc. Normally 99% of everyone out there wont be as kind (or half as much) as you are. NO SYSTEM IS BULLETPROOF.

Belstro, Thanks for all the information!, now on to your questions

1) Capability of the system currently around 110-112 db in a large area (80X100) at the most and it is comprised of the home-brewed cheapo subs (LP@ 80hz, they actually sound really clean with lots of kick, just not the volume we require for larger events.) Two Eminence Eminator two ways with 15s and a compression horn (HP at 80hz), lot's of eq capability( we have at least 2 hanging around not being used and two more in use) and a older mackie 16 channel mixer. We are looking to get 115-120Db out of a new system.

2) The system we currently have is more than enough for the small youth room we have and can reach our volume and quality goals in that room ( 20X50 and insane reflection creating asymetrical walls and ceiling) But when we move it to a larger area for concerts it's just not enough. So we are looking to create a semi portable system for events, and for summertime use at camps etc so we can leave our current system permanently in the smaller room. So we need to build a system that sounds good and has good volume capacity without breaking the bank. Not expecting miracles though I realize there are trade offs. We would rather it sounded better and was hard to move, than portable and weak, as we will always have people to help.

3)For now the operator will be me, but I'm looking to teach a couple guys how to run it right. (not the most experience but I do have a good ear and I know how to operate the equipment within its normal limits)

Right now we are just looking at subs, since we can temporarily use the mains we have. I haven't been given much information as to the extent of the budget aside from $400 max for the actual drivers. Thank you very much for your help!