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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Dakota, USA
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    1,459

    Default WinISD or Madisound problem

    WinISD Beta and Alpha do the same thing.
    What's the deal, why is my F3 @ 70Hz, when the site says a 1.5 ft3 box will get me 47Hz F3?

    Thanks.


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    3,299

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    I think Madisound transposed 47 Hz for 74 Hz. That's the only thing that makes sense and what I got with WinISD (the newest version). I ran it three times, Beta, Alpha, and ISD to be certain. In 1.75 cu.ft ported I got a flat response (+.3dB). It would take a much larger sealed enclosure to be "ideal" by WinAlpha or ISD.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Dakota, USA
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    1,459

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    In that case, the Nomex does 19Hz better.

    Thanks.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Erie, PA
    Posts
    291

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    icor fs looks to be 42Hz, it's right under Le on the spec page.
    Jeff

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Minneapolis
    Posts
    2,174

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    use something other than winISD and see what happens.
    I am trolling you.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Putnam county, NY
    Posts
    383

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Is there a solid version of WinISD ? I get a littler unsettled when I hear the words alpha and beta. I use the beta all the time, I have never used the alpha.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    PacNW, USA
    Posts
    1,056

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    As peepaj stated, the modeled FS is wrong. Change your 64 to 42.

    I use Unibox myself, and love it.
    - John

    "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." - Dr. M. L. King
    www.BuildTheDream.org

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Appleton
    Posts
    7,538

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Quote Originally Posted by AR3A View Post
    Is there a solid version of WinISD ? I get a littler unsettled when I hear the words alpha and beta. I use the beta all the time, I have never used the alpha.
    "beta" gives results VERY SIMILAR to "Alpha" (a.k.a. "Pro") and to every other reputable box modeler out there.

    Beta has a couple features Pro doesn't have. And Pro can be a bit finicky with data entry until you get the hang of it. But Pro takes you ten times deeper into your explorations than beta can.

    You'll finally understand what's meant by "excursion limited".
    You can model passive radiators.
    You can dial in different amounts of "leakage" for your box.
    You can simulate a plate amp's low pass filter on a sub.
    And much, much more.

    Chris

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    North Texas, USA
    Posts
    3,481

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Do you have Excel?

    http://audio.claub.net/software/jbabgy/WBCD.html

    or

    http://audio.claub.net/software/kougaard/ubmodel.html

    Quote Originally Posted by AR3A View Post
    Is there a solid version of WinISD ? I get a littler unsettled when I hear the words alpha and beta. I use the beta all the time, I have never used the alpha.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    485

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Things to consider:

    WinISD Alpha Pro works fine, and is a reasonably accurate simulator provided you know it's qwerks and how to work around them. The most important thing is getting the driver data correctly entered. I like to let WinISD calculate most of the T/S specs from mechanical specs when entering driver information. There is an order that works well and prevents "problems." If you let WinISD do the calculations for you, and you see a discrepancy in it's results that are greater than say +/-10% from published specs, then you know there may be a misprint. At that point, it's a matter of experience deciding where the error most likely is, and either trusting your gut, or moving on to a different driver that doesn't have discrepancies.

    I don't recommend the beta version because without the ability to simulate Xmax vs Pe, amateur builders are apt to be lead astray simply looking for the most extreme "flat extension" without being shown the sacrifices in dynamic range that are given to achieve those response curves. Flat to 20hz doesn't do you any good if the system is Xmax limited to 90dB and you wanted a 110dB capable pair of speakers. Simulation looking for "deep flat extension" only will often lead to the use of high distortion drivers.

    If you want more accurate simulations, use Hornresp. Hornresp uses much more "industrial strength" math far beyond my comprehension, to produce a simulation result.

    Regards,
    Eric
    Last edited by mdocod; 03-29-2012 at 03:36 AM.

  11. #11
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    South Dakota, USA
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    1,459

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Oh, I used F instead of Fs.

    Thanks.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    3,299

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Duh'o! I just plugged your numbers in 3 times and ran them...a Homer Simpson moment!

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Putnam county, NY
    Posts
    383

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    WinISD pro keeps telling me that there is a consistency check fail on Qts, Qms, Qes.

    For this driver

    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...4-1078&scqty=2

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Putnam county, NY
    Posts
    383

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    I got it, don't enter Qts the program uses the other two to calculate Qts.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Erie, PA
    Posts
    291

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Check out this thread, post 13 has zaph's measurements. You could try using them.
    http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=230802
    Jeff

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Putnam county, NY
    Posts
    383

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Thank you surprisingly WinISD calculated very close to his measurements

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    485

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Quote Originally Posted by AR3A View Post
    WinISD pro keeps telling me that there is a consistency check fail on Qts, Qms, Qes.

    For this driver

    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...4-1078&scqty=2
    I recommend a specific order of entering specs to prevent this problem with WinISD..

    Qms, Mms, Cms, Re, BL, Sd, Xmax, Pe

    If you follow that order, all other specifications will be calculated for you without any consistency problems. If one of these specs is not published/available, then come as close as possible to this order, then add 1 additional T/S spec at a time until the remaining important fields have been calculated.

    Regards,
    Eric

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Appleton
    Posts
    7,538

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Quote Originally Posted by mdocod View Post
    I recommend a specific order of entering specs to prevent this problem with WinISD..

    Qms, Mms, Cms, Re, BL, Sd, Xmax, Pe

    If you follow that order, all other specifications will be calculated for you without any consistency problems. If one of these specs is not published/available, then come as close as possible to this order, then add 1 additional T/S spec at a time until the remaining important fields have been calculated.

    Regards,
    Eric

    It's not really all that complicated. (With "auto-calculate" - or whatever it's called turned on) just enter the parms in the order that they "tab", L>R, top to bottom, but don't enter too many.

    I probably just enter Qes, Qms, (SKIP Qts - but watch it calculate it) Fs, Vas, Re, D (cone diameter - or alternately Sd, cone area), Le, Pe, and Xmax.

    Away you go.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO
    Posts
    485

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    Hi Chris,

    How can you say "it's not really all that complicated" and then proceed to give a list of inputs that is equal in length to those I have provided? The complication is equal.

    The mechanical characteristics are less apt to have been "fudged" in the spec sheet. Following the suggested input order I have presented will result in greater precision in most cases. Also, you should skip entering Le, WinISD doesn't calculate for that correctly anyways.

    Regards,
    Eric

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Sioux Falls
    Posts
    11,798

    Default Re: WinISD or Madisound problem

    My tutorial. Sometime this century I will upload the other parts...

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