High SQ sub recommendations

[dcibel]

Then get the 1262w, wire for 2 ohm, and stop worrying about it. It's $60 for petes sake.

I'm not worrying about it. I know how much output I can get from this infinity, compared to others. But do you? By that, if you were shopping for subwoofers, and were some young punk who didn't understand the math and was just comparing the numbers, you might be led to believe that this speaker makes a lot more bass than the honest competition, and buy the Infinity instead.

That's lying to your customers for the purpose of making a sale, if you want to get real sticky about it this sort of thing falls under fraudulent misrepresentation. Problem with nailing anyone to the wall over it is that you have to prove that they did it intentionally, and not just incompetently. It does not matter of the cost of the $60 driver, this is not some measurement that requires a $1M piece of equipment and a highly trained specialist, it's math that is calculated from numbers from the rest of the spec sheet.

Now answer me this. The infinity 120.9W has a selectable 2 or 4 ohm configuration, but the spec sheet only says 91dB@2.83V. What's wrong with that?

I've wasted enough time with this meaningless discussion. Just trying to make a point that the spec sheet is wrong and all, and somehow I'm the baddy.

[dcibel]

Calculated sensitivity for the 1260W works out to 89.5dB/2.83V/1M, so I think you are right with that assumption.

Thanks, someone talking sense again!

[jinjuku]

I'm not worrying about it.

I also believe the spec sheet on the 1262w has sensitivity at 96dB wired for 2 Ohm. I agree about principal but even discounting that sensitivity # the 60 and 62's are nothing to sneeze at.

BTW I think the Reference series looks better than the Kappa's.

[RINNAV]

We are going around in circles. It's not the 2.83V or the 1m I have a problem with, it's the 93dB. It's WRONG. Not just as in marketing wrong, as in mathematically wrong. A physical impossibility. The number itself is incorrect by a little more than 3dB. That's not uncommon in commercial "specs" but it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.

My point in my previous post, is that the number wuold be more believable if it were for the DVC model wired for 2 ohms, since that would generate 3dB more output with 2.83V applied.


Right, costs more, and the spec is completely accurate.

I did miss your point... I tend to miss my wifes point more often than not, then again, selective hearing and reading go hand in hand...

[dcibel]

No worries rinnav.

Don't get me wrong, it looks like a heck of a driver for the price.

[fastbike1]

You still seem to ignore the point that builds that have been discussed are based on measurements not the spec sheet. Again, we're talking actual builds, actual results so the spec part is sort of . . . irrelevant at this point.

And the recommendations weren't based on the spec sheet. But was your real point only that the spec sheet had the wrong value? You accused the manufacturer of lying and didn't even consider that it could be a simple mistake. the rest of the specs are pretty close.
If that's a real issue for you, you won't be buying any more drivers from anyone.

Thanks, someone talking sense again!

[jinjuku]

Now answer me this. The infinity 120.9W has a selectable 2 or 4 ohm configuration, but the spec sheet only says 91dB@2.83V. What's wrong with that?

Well the answer does depend on what angle you are vectoring after when you ask that question.

As a counter response I would tell you to look at the spec sheet for the 1262W. If has sensitivity for both 2 and 8 ohm VC configurations.

You could also just assume that the sensitivity is a best case scenario and assume 2 ohm. But having the definitive answer would be nice. Again we are talking about the Reference 126Xw series and we are only talking $60. You don't have to build.

I'll honestly try to get someone at Harmon to answer that if I can.

[jinjuku]

I just sent my guy an email asking about the stated sensitivity vs the calculated. Hopefully an answer will be forthcoming.

[dcibel]

I really didn't mean for this to be such a big deal. Mostly just trying to get Rinnav to understand what I was trying to say, and he does so problem solved in my mind.

If it's any consequence as to what I think of these drivers as a "good deal", I just ordered a pair. It's funny, you can buy them at FutureShop in Canada for $150 each, or order them online for half that.

[jinjuku]

Hey Dcibel,

I understand where you are coming from but the issue is one of context. The context is we are building/modeling the sub.

I agree some young punk looking for a budget woofer would look at those #'s and I do see it as a problem in THAT context.

But this is an enthusiast forum and that is where I am tending to limit what is pertinent to in scope discussion. Nothing more or less on my part of it. You are the good guy in all this and you are keeping everything honest. You have my thanks for that.

I'm going to try to get this thread forwarded to someone at the car division at Infinity for a response. There may be something that is being collectively overlooked on our side. Who knows.

Here is a measurement of a two sub Reference build by a member at AH:

Using a Behringer FBQ 1000 for EQ and no smoothing.

[Paul Ebert]

No, I don't think anyone is lying. In all of this discussion, and that on the other threads I've found, there was only one comparison of sound quality. That favorably compared the Infinity to a TC Sounds sub. Most of the discussion is about how low they will go, which isn't that important to me. What does "the real deal" mean?

If it means that these subs are really low distortion (to my thinking, distortion is what it's all about for a music sub), then great. Forgive me if that's not what I've taken away from the discussion so far.

Please consider this perspective for a moment. What's being recommended is an inexpensive, car audio, polypropylene sub with what appear to be pretty average specs (yes, I did finally find the TS parameters). To me, none of this would lead me to think this would be a great sub for music compared to, say, the Dayton RSS series with their aluminum cones, low inductance, and sturdy frames. That, and what I perceived as a lack of music directed comments left me a bit skeptical. Again, sorry if I offended.

You asked for recommendations and you got them. These were for actual builds and you're skeptical. So basically you think RINNAV, TimK, Johnny, Brian and jinjuku are lying?

It's certainly your money, but several people have said these are the real deal in several threads. You may not want to use them for whatever reason, but if you're skeptical about multiple people's actual experience, why bother asking? People have designed the box, given you an amp recommendation, etc, and then you can't go to the Infinity site and get the spec sheet like the rest of us?

[fastbike1]

The build we have been suggesting isn't built to go particularly low, and is sealed, which is typically associated with more "musical" performance. RINNAV had discussed that aspect of performance in his thread, which was linked. I thought that you had read the info since you referenced the thread ("Couldn't find the specs"). RINNAV specifically built his sub w/ an eye for music performacne and discussed the results in that context.

The point of the recommendation is all the things you were skeptical about, inexpensive, etc, etc, yet great performance. I still come back to: if a Dayton RSS is what you have/had in mind, what were you expecting for a recommendation?

What I get from this thread is that the minute an Infinity car sub was mentioned, you quit listening. It's ok, that's your perogative. It would have been cleaner if you'd just said "that's not what I'm looking for".

I'm personally not offended so much as frustrated. You got what you asked for, with a much more solid recommendation (i.e. here are some build threads), than is usual, and we got "I don't believe you."

No, I don't think anyone is lying. In all of this discussion, and that on the other threads I've found, there was only one comparison of sound quality. That favorably compared the Infinity to a TC Sounds sub. Most of the discussion is about how low they will go, which isn't that important to me. What does "the real deal" mean?

If it means that these subs are really low distortion (to my thinking, distortion is what it's all about for a music sub), then great. Forgive me if that's not what I've taken away from the discussion so far.

Please consider this perspective for a moment. What's being recommended is an inexpensive, car audio, polypropylene sub with what appear to be pretty average specs (yes, I did finally find the TS parameters). To me, none of this would lead me to think this would be a great sub for music compared to, say, the Dayton RSS series with their aluminum cones, low inductance, and sturdy frames. That, and what I perceived as a lack of music directed comments left me a bit skeptical. Again, sorry if I offended.

[jinjuku]

No, I don't think anyone is lying. In all of this discussion, and that on the other threads I've found, there was only one comparison of sound quality. That favorably compared the Infinity to a TC Sounds sub. Most of the discussion is about how low they will go, which isn't that important to me. What does "the real deal" mean?

If it means that these subs are really low distortion (to my thinking, distortion is what it's all about for a music sub), then great. Forgive me if that's not what I've taken away from the discussion so far.

Please consider this perspective for a moment. What's being recommended is an inexpensive, car audio, polypropylene sub with what appear to be pretty average specs (yes, I did finally find the TS parameters). To me, none of this would lead me to think this would be a great sub for music compared to, say, the Dayton RSS series with their aluminum cones, low inductance, and sturdy frames. That, and what I perceived as a lack of music directed comments left me a bit skeptical. Again, sorry if I offended.

What you are potentially asking is how not to get hit by a $60 ball while going to bat for musical sub.

John 'Zaph' Krutke has a great mantra "What is my curiosity going to cost me".

You could easily build a 2.5 CuFt enclosure and run either driver in it and make your own assessment. Any thing other than that is conjecture.

You asked you received a more budget friendly solution that people with more experience have implemented and posted their experience with. You can lead a horse to water...

[dcibel]

I just sent my guy an email asking about the stated sensitivity vs the calculated. Hopefully an answer will be forthcoming.

I think I figured it out. Have a close look at the 2.83V response curves on the datasheet. The ported cabinet is tuned to have a bump in the response. The peak of that bump is 93dB@2.83V! Looking closer, the 2.83v response for the sealed cabinet more accurately represents the sensitivity of the driver.

So in the legal sense, no Infinity is not lying to you. They are simply being as sneaky as possible to display the highest sensitivity rating as possible without being caught for fraudulent misrepresentation. Klipsch does the same thing with their speakers (among others), and it's the same tactic used once again by AVR manufacturers to tell you that you have a 120W*7 receiver. What was that word Brian Steele used, marketizing the specs? Yes, that's what this is.

So to be completely accurate, sensitivity is 93dB@2.83V@50Hz in a ported 56 litre cabinet tuned to 32Hz.

[jinjuku]

I think I figured it out. Have a close look at the 2.83V response curves on the datasheet. The ported cabinet is tuned to have a bump in the response. The peak of that bump is 93dB@2.83V! Looking closer, the 2.83v response for the sealed cabinet more accurately represents the sensitivity of the driver.

So in the legal sense, no Infinity is not lying to you. They are simply being as sneaky as possible to display the highest sensitivity rating as possible without being caught for fraudulent misrepresentation. Klipsch does the same thing with their speakers (among others), and it's the same tactic used once again by AVR manufacturers to tell you that you have a 120W*7 receiver. What was that word Brian Steele used, marketizing the specs? Yes, that's what this is.

So to be completely accurate, sensitivity is 93dB@2.83V@50Hz in a ported 56 litre cabinet tuned to 32Hz.

I don't see that as out of line as it's intended application is car audio. The graphs are there and it does give an account of the sub in what are indeed car enclosures.

[Brian Steele]

Like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=qLJ46qacE6k

I really wish they would enable youtube embedded links or the youtubeid tag.

Yeah, like that :-).

Your sub? If so, based on your experience with it, do you think that the 17.5 mm Xmax rating is a fairly accurate one? I've got the 122.7Ws (which I got for $100 each), and I've been thinking of upgrading to the 120.9s, when the price is right (and SWMBO isn't looking). The 122.7Ws are Ok, but they are completely outclassed by drivers like the Dayton Shiva-clone DVC 12" and the Exodus Audio Shiva when the volume knob is turned up a few notches. Even my old ACI 10" sub (which is still my main HT sub) would give it a good run for the money at lower frequencies I think.

[Brian Steele]

I don't see that as out of line as it's intended application is car audio. .

That could be a topic of a whole new discussion. From what I'm seeing, it seems that car audio sub drivers having been moving over the years to low Vas, low Fs, high Qts designs, with the manufacturers recommending vented boxes, even when the Qts is as high as 0.8. Modelling the results suggests that the recomendations result in a peaked response at around 60~80 Hz and better power handling down to Fb. I'm not sure the end result could be considered as "accurate", but it might be a better fit for the car audio environment and the requirements of the typical consumer.


B.

[dcibel]

I don't see that as out of line as it's intended application is car audio. The graphs are there and it does give an account of the sub in what are indeed car enclosures.

We'll have to agree to strongly disagree on that one. The rating Infinity is giving is very far fetched, and earlier in this thread JBL and Infinity were labelled as giving truthful specs, which simply is not the case. However in contrast, Eminence rates sensitivity of their drivers at 1kHz, which makes them hard to compare even with other Eminence drivers. Problem is and always has been in the audio industry, lack of standardized tests. Lets manufacturers get away with a lot of flim flam.

[jinjuku]

We'll have to agree to strongly disagree on that one. The rating Infinity is giving is very far fetched, and earlier in this thread JBL and Infinity were labelled as giving truthful specs, which simply is not the case

That leads to a question: How should sensitivity be both rated and measured. It certainly can not be from 20hz to 20khz.

I don't see a major problem with a sensitivity rating as intended for application use. Rating the Reference 1260w at 93dB is a best case, vented, enclosure at 50hz. I'm not into car audio but it is seemingly aimed at the sweet spot for bass reproduction in a car(?).

They post the graphs so I think all relevant information is there for the technically savvy person to form their own on paper performance expectations. Due diligence in all things I guess.

[jinjuku]

Yeah, like that :-).

Your sub? If so, based on your experience with it, do you think that the 17.5 mm Xmax rating is a fairly accurate one?

No, its the 2nd of two subs for a friend (the shoemakers children have no shoes). I do believe the Xmax rating is accurate.