cabinet materials question

[slusho]

I have been lurking here for a while, and I have done a couple of projects (no build threads, sorry, I'm terrible about remembering to take any pics at all), and I keep noticing an overwhelming bias to MDF over just about anything else (except maybe BB plywood, but that is super-pricey from what I can tell). Can anyone chime in on what makes MDF so nice? It seems like it's overly heavy, and it makes and unholy mess. I have also heard (but not experienced) it can be hard on the tools. Does anyone else make or use laminated panels? Why or why not?

[ROTECH]

Overly heavy is the main part of MDF use. The weight of MDF comes from its density. MDF is the cheapest and easiest to source and has pretty darn good acoustic value for cabinet building.
Some people swear by MDF, some swear by good plywood. To me, I prefer MDF because it is always a rather constant product with little variation.
Plywood when cut, can have voids- even if you pay for plywood without voids.
I do wear a 1/2 mask respirator when cutting/sanding/routing MDF and that is a step many people dont want to take so they use plywood.
I feel that more bracing is needed for plywood, but with good material you shouldnt need any more than with same thickness MDF.

Perhaps the main reason is, there is a Home Depot and Lowes near almost everyones home. They both sell MDF, but no quality Ply.

[slusho]

I guess that makes sense. I have been making my own laminated panels for a while now, and it isn't that much work, plus it seems pretty inert. I layer a sheet of 1/2" osb, a layer of 60# roofing felt, and a layer of 1/8" tempered hardboard. Use a rubber roller and some poly glue, takes about a tube per sheet. I usually make 2-3 sheets at a time. It only takes a couple of days to cure, then it cuts just like normal ply or osb. Is it just that people don't want to "build" their sheets?

[ROTECH]

I guess that makes sense. I have been making my own laminated panels for a while now, and it isn't that much work, plus it seems pretty inert. I layer a sheet of 1/2" osb, a layer of 60# roofing felt, and a layer of 1/8" tempered hardboard. Use a rubber roller and some poly glue, takes about a tube per sheet. I usually make 2-3 sheets at a time. It only takes a couple of days to cure, then it cuts just like normal ply or osb. Is it just that people don't want to "build" their sheets?

Well, I am sure time is a factor in many decisions.
Your method has been used by many, and many like it. The layered approach should be superior from my research. I have not seen OSB used, though I know it has good lateral strength.
How dead do your panels sound as compared to 3/4 MDF? knock with your knuckle and compare. We would love to hear your opinion.

[slusho]

I'll have to get a peice of MDF to compare directly (should be able to get a few scraps from the 'yard for free). I use OSB rather than ply specifically to avoid the issue with voids, plus OSB seems to be more consistent overall than most construction-grade ply. The real reason I startedd making these panels was mostly because of my experiences with MDF and particleboard cabinets. I livein Florida, and they seem to swell and deform just by the humidity alone, regardless of getting wet. Plus the OSB is *much* easier to get hold of with fasteners, without nearly the risk of tearout (compared to MDF or particleboard).

[fbov]

... Is it just that people don't want to "build" their sheets?

Very few people are even aware that you can do that with great benefit. Some that are, like Pete Schumaker, do as you do. Others, like me, look for less involved ways to achieve the same end without the added complexity of a panel lamination step. Wolf's Stance is one example of comparable alternatives.

It's a hobby, so we each do it the way we'd like!

But we do like pictures...

Have fun,
Frank

[slusho]

I'll try to get some pics up in the next few days with a comparison of the two. I got a 12x12 square of 3/4" MDF yesterday afternoon, an they are fairly similarly "dead". Both make a nice, solid, *thock* sound when rapped with a knuckle. I still like the laminated panel more; I just think the lighter wieght and better fastener holding outweigh the simplicity of (basically) 3/4" paper. Also, shouldn't the double layer of poly glue and the tar paper do some significant damping of any resonance that does start?

[ROTECH]

I'll try to get some pics up in the next few days with a comparison of the two. I got a 12x12 square of 3/4" MDF yesterday afternoon, an they are fairly similarly "dead". Both make a nice, solid, *thock* sound when rapped with a knuckle. I still like the laminated panel more; I just think the lighter wieght and better fastener holding outweigh the simplicity of (basically) 3/4" paper. Also, shouldn't the double layer of poly glue and the tar paper do some significant damping of any resonance that does start?

It should do some decent ( maybe added ) damping over MDF- as mentioned, check out Pete Shumacher's builds. I think Dave pelligren also did some layered approaches.

As for OSB holding fasteners better....... Generally fasteners shouldnt have to be used in cabinet construction. Good cuts, and good glue should be all you need. As for tearing of MDF.... Measure twice, pre-drill once. With the right pilot hole, correct screw, and good center on the board, you should not experience tear outs.

As for Humidity affecting MDF.... it happens in NH as well as Florida. That is why there are many hundreds of threads here talking about how to deal with the end grain of MDF. At the end of the day, the end grain of MDF will be easier to deal with than layered OSB with some other stuff of choice in the middle. It all depends on how you construct your cabinets.

[slusho]

Sorry, when I was talking about fastener-holding power, I was referring to screws for mounting drivers in the material. I can't tell you how many times I have stripped out a screw in particle board without much torque. Also, I haven't done much with MDF on full-size cabinet, I do know that OSB doesn't move much. It grows and shrinks some, sure, (it is wood) but it's very stable stuff overall.

[Whitneyville1]

I built mobile homes one summer in college and we used every material known to man in them and our's were warranted if tied down right, to stand-up to a tornado or you got a new one free. As my boss said "Let me see your stick-built house go down the road at 70 MPH!" Every wood product or man-made has advantages and disadvantages. This new stuff which is old milk jugs mixed with wood fibers and "foamed" for a waterproof, rot-proof, lighter MDF-like material (it's much stronger too) I'm going to try and get a part sheet of it to play with. I've tried the "OSB mixed with old soft-drink bottles". It's water-proof and stable, but it ruins saw blades. It's designed to be cut with a high-pressure water cutter. Like Trex for decks and stairs, new stuff is coming out all the time, and I'm game to try it. OSB isn't paint or veneer "ready", but that's what 1/8" masonite or hardwood ply is for I guess.

[slusho]

I haven't seen this new plastic-wood fiber foam composite, but it sounds like it could be great. And yeah, the finish is why I went with masonite (what i grew up calling hardboard) as the outer layer.

[Whitneyville1]

The foam composite is green colored and of course, I've forgotten the brand, but I think it's an LP product. My "REAL" lumber yard carries it, it runs about $50 for a 49" X 98" sheet (18mm thick). I've been waiting for a half or quarter sheet to play with.