small desktop 3 way?

[donradick]

Hey all,

The retail market has many small 3 ways, with "massive" 4 inch woofers, and such. So I thought I'd attempt one. I need a nice pair of desktop speakers, and why not challenge myself with my first 3 way?

Size: 15 liters or less, probable target about 11-12 liters.
Woofer: 5 or 5 1/2 - six is too big for the volume, and I don't need or want a tiny box with a 4 inch

Mid: probably the TangBand W3-1053 - I've got 4, they are certainly smooth enough, and should be ok HP'ed around 350-400.

TW: I'm going to be boring, and go with the Vifa BC25SC06-04 - still have a few left, and they are small enough.

So.....
Woofer choice is RS150 vs TB W5-704D - RS goes a bit deeper, so that's my choice.

Efficiency is the big question - the RS150 is 87, and the W3-1053 is 85 db - do I need to worry about this? How will BSC affect this? Do I need a WMTM design?

thanks in advance....

[Wolf]

Hey all,

The retail market has many small 3 ways, with "massive" 4 inch woofers, and such. So I thought I'd attempt one. I need a nice pair of desktop speakers, and why not challenge myself with my first 3 way?

Size: 15 liters or less, probable target about 11-12 liters.
Woofer: 5 or 5 1/2 - six is too big for the volume, and I don't need or want a tiny box with a 4 inch

Mid: probably the TangBand W3-1053 - I've got 4, they are certainly smooth enough, and should be ok HP'ed around 350-400.

TW: I'm going to be boring, and go with the Vifa BC25SC06-04 - still have a few left, and they are small enough.

So.....
Woofer choice is RS150 vs TB W5-704D - RS goes a bit deeper, so that's my choice.

Efficiency is the big question - the RS150 is 87, and the W3-1053 is 85 db - do I need to worry about this? How will BSC affect this? Do I need a WMTM design?

thanks in advance....

FWIW- I would use the W5-704 in this project. You'd have a timbre match poly-poly silk. The W5-704 gets to about 40 in 15 ltrs, and you can use 4 1" vents easily like I did in my Canvas. The plus is the sensitivity is closer.

Now- Are you going T/M + W or in line TMW?
Later,
Wolf

[donradick]

FWIW- I would use the W5-704 in this project. You'd have a timbre match poly-poly silk. The W5-704 gets to about 40 in 15 ltrs, and you can use 4 1" vents easily like I did in my Canvas. The plus is the sensitivity is closer.

Now- Are you going T/M + W or in line TMW?
Later,
Wolf

W5-704 is still a possibility, but I'm trying for about 11-12 liters, and the RS150 will hit F3 of 49 vs the W5 F3 of 53. Audible? not likely, and I'd be happy either way.

Looking for a straight TMW if possible. Don't need or want a sub. Mid 40s F6 should be fine. If I need to go to MTMW to match sensitivity, the form factor and cosmetics may force a change of mid.

[Wolf]

W5-704 is still a possibility, but I'm trying for about 11-12 liters, and the RS150 will hit F3 of 49 vs the W5 F3 of 53. Audible? not likely, and I'd be happy either way.

Looking for a straight TMW if possible. Don't need or want a sub. Mid 40s F6 should be fine. If I need to go to MTMW to match sensitivity, the form factor and cosmetics may force a change of mid.

I wasn't suggesting a sub, just a layout.

Just in case you were using spec sheets...



Later,
Wolf

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Use the 4-ohm RS150? Especially if you go MTMW.

[Mayhem13]

I don't know of I'd choose an 85db midrange....after BSC to the XO to the woofer maybe 83db? With 2nd order slope. My choice would be a dome mid and since it's for a desktop maybe woofer on the side of a vertical MT.....ATC monitor style.

[rpb]

Hey all,

The retail market has many small 3 ways, with "massive" 4 inch woofers, and such. So I thought I'd attempt one. I need a nice pair of desktop speakers, and why not challenge myself with my first 3 way?

Size: 15 liters or less, probable target about 11-12 liters.
Woofer: 5 or 5 1/2 - six is too big for the volume, and I don't need or want a tiny box with a 4 inch

Mid: probably the TangBand W3-1053 - I've got 4, they are certainly smooth enough, and should be ok HP'ed around 350-400.

TW: I'm going to be boring, and go with the Vifa BC25SC06-04 - still have a few left, and they are small enough.

So.....
Woofer choice is RS150 vs TB W5-704D - RS goes a bit deeper, so that's my choice.

Efficiency is the big question - the RS150 is 87, and the W3-1053 is 85 db - do I need to worry about this? How will BSC affect this? Do I need a WMTM design?

thanks in advance....

An 85 dB mid should not have any issue with an 87 dB woofer in a 3-way. Sounds like a doable combination to me.

I like the tweeter choice too!

[Sidi]

just don't use the tweeter and 3.5" mid I'm using in an eerily similar idea

[Wolf]

I don't know of I'd choose an 85db midrange....after BSC to the XO to the woofer maybe 83db? With 2nd order slope. My choice would be a dome mid and since it's for a desktop maybe woofer on the side of a vertical MT.....ATC monitor style.

That's kinda where I was headed....T/M+W.

Later,
Wolf

[mdocod]

Hello donradick,

The woofer sets the efficiency of the system. I'd personally go for nearly full baffle correction (assume free space loading) for small computer speakers. The efficiency of your mid and tweeter don't really matter because you'll just be padding them down to the woofer anyways. I'd suggest coming to grips with the reality of a final system sensitivity below 80dB@1W1M after BSC. IMO this is a non-issue for near field speakers. Also, I think a common mistake with small speakers is under-powering them. A good 25-50+WPC of clean amplification will help get those inefficient speakers playing loud and clean.

If you're going to go through the trouble of a 3-way for such a small system, I'd say there ought to be some sort of "reason" for it. With that in mind, I'll create a possible reason: The use of a W5-1138SMF for your woofer. Vented options with a rear facing 2" flared port kit modified with an elbow to get a few extra inches would do the trick IMO. Flat to 40hz

If you'd like some help, I'm looking for opportunities to practice the use of various simulation software. I wouldn't mind running through the paces and shooting out some x-over designs if you are interested. I wouldn't "separate" the woofer from the traditional TMW unless you intend to bi-amp the system. Keeping the woofer on the front may simplify the implementation of BSC.

Regards,
Eric

[donradick]

Guys, once again, thanks for all the suggestions.

In no particular order -
I'd try a TM/W (W on the side) if the M would play well down to about 100, but with this mid and a Fs at 110 or so, I'm going to need to HP it at 300 or so.

Besides, my original vision was a smallish TMW, and darn it, that's what I'm going to try to make work.

I have heard some people suggest full BSC for desktop speakers, but these should get into the 40s and have a boost from the desktop surface and the back wall. Planning on 3 dB BSC with a little bump on the bottom due to box tuning.

I've got a (beloved) DTA-100 on my desk. Love it - retired a big hunk of a Carver and like the sonic quality and smallness.

I'm going to append to this thread as I get into the guts of the design, and make it more of a community process than my builds in the past.

[Whitneyville1]

Don, the cheapskate in me (and my DTA-100) says RS-150 8ohm, one of the dirt cheap T-B's as a mid/tweeter and the $2.50 buy-out Nuance tweeter for the top if needed. 30 watts per channel close field should damage anyone's hearing, 40Hz with full BSC and rear wall reflection will satisfy all but the hard-core head-bangers, and they can double in brass as bedroom speakers. Something about 8 liters and front ported seems to "fit" my needs better. I'm waiting with a worm on my tongue (baited breath). My Aura NS3-193-8's sound good close field, but in just less than 4 liters, they don't give "room filling sound". The RS-150's may just fit on my 'puter desk. 20" tall and 8-9" deep is fine here.

[Wolf]

Guys, once again, thanks for all the suggestions.

In no particular order -
I'd try a TM/W (W on the side) if the M would play well down to about 100, but with this mid and a Fs at 110 or so, I'm going to need to HP it at 300 or so.

I don't think you're understanding what I mean, even though I get you want a straight TMW. All drivers are on the front baffle in a T/M+W.

http://www.atcloudspeakers.co.uk/scm25apro.php


So, nothing further- commence with your TMW!
Wolf

[Whitneyville1]

Don, the cheapskate in me (and my DTA-100) says RS-150 8ohm, one of the dirt cheap T-B's as a mid/tweeter and the $2.50 buy-out Nuance tweeter for the top if needed. 30 watts per channel close field should damage anyone's hearing, 40Hz with full BSC and rear wall reflection will satisfy all but the hard-core head-bangers, and they can double in brass as bedroom speakers. Something about 8 liters and front ported seems to "fit" my needs better. I'm waiting with a worm on my tongue (baited breath). My Aura NS3-193-8's sound good close field, but in just less than 4 liters, they don't give "room filling sound". The RS-150's may just fit on my 'puter desk. 20" tall and 8-9" deep is fine here.

[rpb]

W5-704 is still a possibility, but I'm trying for about 11-12 liters, and the RS150 will hit F3 of 49 vs the W5 F3 of 53. Audible? not likely, and I'd be happy either way.

Looking for a straight TMW if possible. Don't need or want a sub. Mid 40s F6 should be fine. If I need to go to MTMW to match sensitivity, the form factor and cosmetics may force a change of mid.

One thing to consider, is the room in the box for the x-over. Personally, I cringe at the thought of getting a x-over shoehorned into anything so small.

[slusho]

What about an ND65/ND140 setup, with the woofer on the side? Seems like it could do very well in a small ported box. Even 25l should get you an f10 of about 30Hz

edit: just re-read your idea for ~10-15l. I still like the ND140, and it looks like 12l sealed will get you an f10 of right at 40Hz

[donradick]

I don't think you're understanding what I mean, even though I get you want a straight TMW. All drivers are on the front baffle in a T/M+W.

http://www.atcloudspeakers.co.uk/scm25apro.php


So, nothing further- commence with your TMW!
Wolf

Wow - now I see what you meant!
Very interesting - I was trying for less than 11-12 inches vertically, and realizing that my choice of drivers were going to result in a height of about 13, maybe 14 inches. I might even put the port on the front. This is a very possible choice - a real bookshelf, and it frees up my desktop for the usual stacks of paper and my laptop.

[donradick]

One thing to consider, is the room in the box for the x-over. Personally, I cringe at the thought of getting a x-over shoehorned into anything so small.

Yah - I totally agree - I don't know how Wolf does it in those very small boxes. I find myself thinking about NPE caps more and more. I'll have to setup a critical listening test sometime, but I really don't think I'll be able to tell the diff between NPE and PE metallized polyprope. I think I'll have "some" room in 11 liters for a crossover, but I'll decide at the end if it needs to be external.

[donradick]

Don, the cheapskate in me (and my DTA-100) says RS-150 8ohm, one of the dirt cheap T-B's as a mid/tweeter and the $2.50 buy-out Nuance tweeter for the top if needed. 30 watts per channel close field should damage anyone's hearing, 40Hz with full BSC and rear wall reflection will satisfy all but the hard-core head-bangers, and they can double in brass as bedroom speakers. Something about 8 liters and front ported seems to "fit" my needs better. I'm waiting with a worm on my tongue (baited breath). My Aura NS3-193-8's sound good close field, but in just less than 4 liters, they don't give "room filling sound". The RS-150's may just fit on my 'puter desk. 20" tall and 8-9" deep is fine here.

I think I'm going to go with Wolf's suggestion - a true bookshelf, no more than 9-10 inches deep, front ported. I found out with my Targas, that the RS150s will very capably fill a smallish room with solid bass and lots of clean SPL.

[donradick]

Hello donradick,



If you're going to go through the trouble of a 3-way for such a small system, I'd say there ought to be some sort of "reason" for it. With that in mind, I'll create a possible reason: The use of a W5-1138SMF for your woofer. Vented options with a rear facing 2" flared port kit modified with an elbow to get a few extra inches would do the trick IMO. Flat to 40hz

If you'd like some help, I'm looking for opportunities to practice the use of various simulation software. I wouldn't mind running through the paces and shooting out some x-over designs if you are interested. I wouldn't "separate" the woofer from the traditional TMW unless you intend to bi-amp the system. Keeping the woofer on the front may simplify the implementation of BSC.

Regards,
Eric

I looked closely at that W5 sub - but I was concerned about how clean it would play to, say 400 Hz versus the RS150. I really don't think I can hear 3% bass distortion, but I'm pretty critical about the lower midrange for piano, drums and male vocals.

Front woofer, probably front port.

As stated, this will be an open design process. I'll be happy to involve you in the simulation and modeling....