Dayton RS180/RS28 Home Theater suggestions?

[Fmstrat]

Hi Everyone,

I've recently moved into a new home, leaving the custom in-wall solution I built from Dayton paper woofers and silk-dome tweeters behind. I'd like to set up the new theater using the Dayton reference series, specifically the RS180's and RS28's, but wanted to get peoples' opinions on the specific setup.

As of now, I'm considering mirroring the setup I had in my last theater:

• MTM Fronts
• TM Center
• TM Sides
• TM Rears

However, I can't find any good pre-existing designs for a single RS180 with an RS28 tweeter. I could certainly design my own but it's been a long time since I've used all the baffle spreadsheets/etc and designed from scratch.

I'd also prefer to stay away from MTM's for the surrounds as that can get pretty costly in a 7.1 environment. All of this would be coupled with a sub, of course.

Lastly I'm looking for center channel suggestions. I'm considering going with something stronger for the center, but wanted opinions there, too.

Thanks in advance,
Ben

[cjd]

Jeff B has an MTM design I believe.

Look for Modula MT, and Natalie P (MTM) designs at htguide.com - the Modula center does not use the RS28. Any horizontal MTM is not ideal for a center, and with these drivers somewhat less so. If you can spring for a WTMW, the Khancenter may just do the trick for you.

Of course, if you step to the Khan-center you might want to peek at the Garnacha for similar 3-way mains.

C

[Fmstrat]

Thanks for the response! I've been evaluating everything from an MTM perspective here: http://www.rjbaudio.com/RS180MTM/rs180-rs28-mtm.html as it seems there are quite a few MTM designs, the problem is in locating a TM design using the reference series.

I had seen the Khan-series before (your crossover/design, right?), and I would LOVE to use them or match with the Garnachas, but I worry I'll be getting out of my price point with the more complex crossovers. Especially considering that would make for 4 3-way speakers at ~$200 a pop if I went with the In-Khan-Neatos for surrounds.

Ben

[cjd]

Thanks for the response! I've been evaluating everything from an MTM perspective here: http://www.rjbaudio.com/RS180MTM/rs180-rs28-mtm.html as it seems there are quite a few MTM designs, the problem is in locating a TM design using the reference series.

I had seen the Khan-series before (your crossover/design, right?), and I would LOVE to use them or match with the Garnachas, but I worry I'll be getting out of my price point with the more complex crossovers. Especially considering that would make for 4 3-way speakers at ~$200 a pop if I went with the In-Khan-Neatos for surrounds.

Ben

TM, as mentioned, check the Modula MT.

Yeah, Khans (and Garnacha) are my crossovers. Would work fine with the Modula MT as surrounds, definitely no need to run the TMW's as surrounds! Unless you want to.

I have 3-ways (WMTW, in-wall behind the screen, using RS180 as the W) in my HT with TM's using the RS180 as surrounds. Really no reason for 3-ways unless you do a lot of multichannel music that really uses these.

[Dave_W]

Jeff B's crossover for his RS180/RS28 MTM has the lowest component count of any of the other MTM designs available, which will save a lot of money. I also think it's the most elegant x-over solution, but that's just my amateur opinion... There is some discussion in the thread about making his MTM and MT without much issue.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...180-MTM-Design

That would cover your MTM and MT bases and have the simplest crossover.

You may want to consider something a bit more "robust" for the center than an MT. Movies carry a lot of information through the CC.

[Fmstrat]

TM, as mentioned, check the Modula MT.

Yeah, Khans (and Garnacha) are my crossovers. Would work fine with the Modula MT as surrounds, definitely no need to run the TMW's as surrounds! Unless you want to.

I have 3-ways (WMTW, in-wall behind the screen, using RS180 as the W) in my HT with TM's using the RS180 as surrounds. Really no reason for 3-ways unless you do a lot of multichannel music that really uses these.

Oh wow I completely misread that first sentence. The Modula MT is exactly what I was looking for, though the parts list doesn't seem to line up with the crossover displayed in the post you linked to. At the bottom of post 1, there is a crossover displayed for the RS28, and here is the parts list for the RS28 crossover: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...4&postcount=18

An example is the 12uF capacitor listed in the parts list, but not shown on the crossover. Is the crossover in the first post the latest one?

Thanks a ton for your help!
Ben

[Fmstrat]

Jeff B's crossover for his RS180/RS28 MTM has the lowest component count of any of the other MTM designs available, which will save a lot of money. I also think it's the most elegant x-over solution, but that's just my amateur opinion... There is some discussion in the thread about making his MTM and MT without much issue.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...180-MTM-Design

That would cover your MTM and MT bases and have the simplest crossover.

You may want to consider something a bit more "robust" for the center than an MT. Movies carry a lot of information through the CC.

Wow, that is an extremely simple crossover. It looks like from the thread that despite the published numbers the RS28A could be substituted for the RS28AS with minimal effect (RS28AS is no longer sold). However, I don't see anything in that discussion about an MT?

And yes, agree on center channel, which is why I'm open to suggestions there. I may to an acoustically transparent screen and run an MTM vertically back there, but would prefer something that could be mounted horizontal just in case.

Thanks!
Ben

[mdocod]

Hi Fmstat,

I'd be happy to simulate a network in my spare time for some configurations of these drivers. I'll need information about intended speaker positioning in room relative to the listener and boundaries, whether you intend to toe them in or not, and what baffle size/layout you had in mind (or if that's still open for suggestions).

For your centre channel, have you thought about something like Zaph's ZD3C?

For your front mains, don't discount the option to go TMM 2.5 way rather than an MTM. The position of the speakers relative to boundaries should help determine which route is better (the 2.5 way is going to be full BSC, the MTM can be fine tuned to any amount of BSC desired). The TMM 2.5 way has the advantage of superior vertical off axis response.

Eric

[Dave_W]

Check posts 91 and 92 on page 5. He doesn't explicitly layout the crossover and box, but from my understanding it's a pretty simple tweek...

Wow, that is an extremely simple crossover. It looks like from the thread that despite the published numbers the RS28A could be substituted for the RS28AS with minimal effect (RS28AS is no longer sold). However, I don't see anything in that discussion about an MT?

And yes, agree on center channel, which is why I'm open to suggestions there. I may to an acoustically transparent screen and run an MTM vertically back there, but would prefer something that could be mounted horizontal just in case.

Thanks!
Ben

[Fmstrat]

Check posts 91 and 92 on page 5. He doesn't explicitly layout the crossover and box, but from my understanding it's a pretty simple tweek...

He says you would need to "pad down the tweeter about 3dB". As I said, it's been a LOOOONNNGGG time since I've done crossover design work. Anyone care to refresh me on how this is accomplished?

Hi Fmstat,

I'd be happy to simulate a network in my spare time for some configurations of these drivers. I'll need information about intended speaker positioning in room relative to the listener and boundaries, whether you intend to toe them in or not, and what baffle size/layout you had in mind (or if that's still open for suggestions).

For your centre channel, have you thought about something like Zaph's ZD3C?

For your front mains, don't discount the option to go TMM 2.5 way rather than an MTM. The position of the speakers relative to boundaries should help determine which route is better (the 2.5 way is going to be full BSC, the MTM can be fine tuned to any amount of BSC desired). The TMM 2.5 way has the advantage of superior vertical off axis response.

Eric

Thanks Eric. I'll let you know if I decide to go the custom route (I have an MTM I've designed using the RS28 and the 5.25" reference driver that I made a while back that I could always build from to refresh my lost knowledge) but for now I'm looking for options of pre-designs that have had real-world listening experience.

Zaph's options look good, but the center doesn't use the RS28, so I worry it wouldn't match up as well as I would like.

I was mainly choosing MTM because I've done that before, certainly open to TMM and 2.5 way. In fact, that was one of the options on the page I linked to above.

Thanks all,
Ben

[Fmstrat]

Well, I've done the cost calculations against Jeff B's design. Chose it first because it was the easiest with so few crossover parts Interestingly enough I may just end up doing MTMs all the way around (minus center) to simplify things as I would be looking at around $1300 for 6 MTMs or $1100 for 2 MTMs and 4 TM's. Need to price out a Khancenter to see if I can make this fit in budget.

I should point at you guys have been awesome. A literal plethora of info in just one day.

Thanks again,
Ben

[cjd]

It looks like from the thread that despite the published numbers the RS28A could be substituted for the RS28AS with minimal effect (RS28AS is no longer sold).

That depends. I did not find it to be the case, with some designs MUCH worse than others.

Also, a 3-way is always going to be quite a bit more in the crossover department than a 2-way; Larger components on the woofer + 2x the parts overall add up. Mine, I admit, climb the parts list a little more aggressively than some (at least with these metal drivers. Love them, but HATE the grunge they add if it's not dealt with.) I take every last part out of the crossover that I can and still be happy with the results, but... whee.

[mdocod]

One way you can help cut additional costs on the TMs, would be, to use the 4 ohm versions of the midbass drivers.... Helps cut some of those big value inductors on the low pass to about half the size.

The way I see it, the centre channel, more or less sets the limits for the rest of the system. However "capable" your centre is, building any of the other speakers in the system to be "more" capable would be rather unnecessary overhead and cost since the centre will set the dynamic limits of the system.

If you are interested in an alternative, a TM with the RS225-4 would, IMO, be more compact vertically than an MTM making it more centre channel friendly. It wouldn't quite reach the dynamics of the MTM RS180s, but, would be better for the center than a single RS180 TM setup. I realize 8" midbass in 2-ways is out of fashion, but I honestly don't understand why. An MTM of slightly smaller drivers will have greater vertical lobing through a more critical range than an 8" based 2-way IMO. You might consider RS225-4 based TMs for the front 3 mains, and RS180-4 based TMs for the surrounds.

Eric

[cjd]

FWIW, if you need something a little different for surrounds, there's this (though it uses the Seas 27TDFC so I did not mention it initially).

It hasn't been asked, but if you're in range and can drop off boxes, I'm happy to whip up crossovers - that's how the Khan series came to life. I don't offer sim-only services though as I've learned well (and heard at DIY events) the limitations.

I realize 8" midbass in 2-ways is out of fashion, but I honestly don't understand why.

They're not. They just take extra care in execution and careful driver selection (at least with drivers like these.) Mark K has a superb TM with the RS28A and RS225-8. Pete S has brought one around the DIY events recently.

C