Why is MTM so popular these days?

[dthomas]

sorry i figured out how to quote...

is it really about how low a speaker plays because i am not sure anymore, the guy who does speaker install in our garage says any speaker will play any frequency if you dont expe3ct to win volume contests and that the small speaker people know that and they are justifying their smnall speaker cheapness by saying a quiet 40 herz is the same as a loud 40 herz so that makes it ok to make little speakers.

Stop listening to the guy who does speaker installs in your garage he sounds confused. Maybe been sniffing the fumes in the garage for too long.

Big 3 ways went out of fashion for a lot of reasons. Part of it has to do that they figured out how to get 7" woofers to play down to 40 Hz and below making them obsolete for the home hifi. If you want quality sound for music there are several 7" woofers that more than capable assuming you spl requirements are not off the charts.

[Brewski]

Figured I'd add a few of my Pony car favorites

Take it easy
Jay

Mopar Trans Am fun




Twister Mustang


Yenko Camaro

[contoursvt]

I really REALLY like a clean fox mustang - like this saleen but it doesnt have to be a saleen, just a well done, clean fox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HD05p...eature=related

[WernerM]

I used to want all of those, then I realised how much EVERYBODY else did too, and how outrageous the prices are, now I want a 67 Nova like this, but all modern chasis and drive train, maybe a corvette engine, tranny, and rear end...




Anyway we are getting off topic, sorry...

[Whitneyville1]

Some 15" 3-4 ways just have a different quality of sound than their MTM, W.5MMT brothers. The old "monkey coffins" fit the space in my living room better than taller, skinnier speakers would and I have NO space for anything but the tiniest of subs. Because it's hard to get a motorcycle and sheets of plywood and sheetrock into the trunk of a Lexus LS 460s, I drive a pick-em-up. That doesn't mean the Lexus is "inferior", or my Dakota is my "perfect" vehicle.

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Well, how about a modern melding of some classic favs?

[Mark65]

That is SIIIICCCCKKKK!

[69FireBird]

Stop listening to the guy who does speaker installs in your garage he sounds confused. Maybe been sniffing the fumes in the garage for too long.

Big 3 ways went out of fashion for a lot of reasons. Part of it has to do that they figured out how to get 7" woofers to play down to 40 Hz and below making them obsolete for the home hifi. If you want quality sound for music there are several 7" woofers that more than capable assuming you spl requirements are not off the charts.

so what i said?

sorry i called them ugly

[Pete Schumacher ®]

Don't worry about it. It really doesn't matter. Some folks got a little defensive admittedly when they saw you take what they considered a cheap shot at my beloved Byzantiums. Hey, for me to not realize that they're not everyone's idea of a gorgeous speaker would be pretty short sighted. I just think they thought a bit of decorum was in order, you know, polite conversation and all.

The Internet allows people to talk to others like they would rarely talk to them in person, being so anonymous.

Stick around. And next time, before you hit reply, sit back and read what you wrote and maybe you'll make an edit or two. I know I've posted more than a few times where I should have taken my own advice.

[contoursvt]

IMO big speakers started fading because of sub/satellite systems. The average person (non audiophile) that grew up when big speakers were popular remembers stuff like the Klipsch, Cerwin Vegas, Boston Acoustics (I remember their big T930), Polk audio, Celestion, Infinity and stuff like that. Those were the ones in the electronics stores that would get turned up loud to show them off but they were a hard sell because the GF or wife was not into it so much and definitely didnt want the house cluttered with big boxes. When Bose brought out the Acumass system, I remember it was a big deal. All of a sudden there was the ability to have some thump without it being intrusive (even if it was crap). Even today, the average person's living room probably has some crappy home theater in a box - some tiny speakers and a stupid noisemaker of a sub thats not even really a sub at all

As for audiophile speakers go, there have always been big 3 ways and still there are quite a few so I dont think its out of style. Its just not popular in the mainstream crowd due to the sub satellite systems and HT in a box. At least thats what I think

Stop listening to the guy who does speaker installs in your garage he sounds confused. Maybe been sniffing the fumes in the garage for too long.

Big 3 ways went out of fashion for a lot of reasons. Part of it has to do that they figured out how to get 7" woofers to play down to 40 Hz and below making them obsolete for the home hifi. If you want quality sound for music there are several 7" woofers that more than capable assuming you spl requirements are not off the charts.

[jinjuku]

I about fell on the floor when I read he plainly called them ugly. Expected Pete to not be as nice as he was- A nice result that he was gentle in response.

Show him your speakers with the handles on back...

[r-carpenter]

Big 3 ways went out of fashion for a lot of reasons. Part of it has to do that they figured out how to get 7" woofers to play down to 40 Hz and below making them obsolete for the home hifi. If you want quality sound for music there are several 7" woofers that more than capable assuming you spl requirements are not off the charts.

I don't think 12" or 15" are obsolete. Perhaps less popular for a variety of non sound reproduction related issues. Bunch of 7" woofers loaded on the resonant enclose for low end reinforcement surely will bring it's own set of drawbacks and issues compare to a dedicated 12" woofer in a 3-way. Really, the question in this topic is as broad as car tastes. One can always design and build BMTMB and get low end extension.
Commercial MTMs are more popular now days because they are "good enough" for most people, cheaper to make, cheaper to ship and less obtrusive at home. It's the same reason, majority of the population will drive budget grocery getter.

[DanP]

This has already been mentioned, but MTMs represent a great value point because the crossover is simple and cheap compared to a 3-way and you get twice the radiating area of a TM. All of this can come in a neat narrow package for the price of an extra driver, which are usually cheaper when bought in quads anyway. If you're going to put them in parallel, the crossover is usually even cheaper than a TM because the primary lowpass coil will be half the size, which is a big cost driver. This doesn't make them better than a 3-way with a big ol' woofer, just a different, attractive set of compromises. Also, a quick kudos to Pete for his classiness this thread.

Dan

[GranteedEV]

Part of it has to do that they figured out how to get 7" woofers to play down to 40 Hz and below making them obsolete for the home hifi. If you want quality sound for music there are several 7" woofers that more than capable assuming you spl requirements are not off the charts.

Obsolete?

most of these speakers end up being around 85db/w/m(and that's the ones with more powerful motors IE Seas W18). Then add in that such a ~40hz vented speaker will have a impedance minima at that frequency - - where excursion (and thus driver venting) is minimal and current draw is not.

With about 128 watts @ 3m your max SPL is 96.6 in the lower mids. Can't really pour much more power into those little voice coils (just 3db more requires 256w... and then 3db more requires 512w) - even if the power gets distrubuted over two voice coils in an MTM, and basically you're saying that over about 97db at the typical listening position is "off the charts". Maybe it's pretty loud, but i'm not sure it even encompasses enough dynamic range or for "lifelike" levels on percussion or sustained power handling on brass, metal, and especially (for those few that listen to it...) opera.

[rpb]

Obsolete?

most of these speakers end up being around 85db/w/m(and that's the ones with more powerful motors IE Seas W18). Then add in that such a ~40hz vented speaker will have a impedance minima at that frequency - - where excursion (and thus driver venting) is minimal and current draw is not.

With about 128 watts @ 3m your max SPL is 96.6 in the lower mids. Can't really pour much more power into those little voice coils (just 3db more requires 256w... and then 3db more requires 512w) - even if the power gets distrubuted over two voice coils in an MTM, and basically you're saying that over about 97db at the typical listening position is "off the charts". Maybe it's pretty loud, but i'm not sure it even encompasses enough dynamic range or for "lifelike" levels on percussion or sustained power handling on brass, metal, and especially (for those few that listen to it...) opera.

I believe typical 12" or 15" 3-ways also end up around 86 to 87 dB, so I don't see much difference.

[Tin_Ears]

Personally, I prefer separate subwoofers below 80 Hz even if the boxes simply act as stands below the mains. I like "options" and this method expands options.

[GranteedEV]

I believe typical 12" or 15" 3-ways also end up around 86 to 87 dB, so I don't see much difference.

There are differences.

A sealed 12" system with an F3 around 40hz will not have the impedance minima in that range of the vented system. It has a single resonance peak, where efficiency will be very high. Below that point, where impedance begins to drop again, excursion begins to rise linearly and so you get cooling of the voice coil as a result. Above that point a 12" woofer will normally have a voice coil that serves as a more effective heatsink than what you find on a 6.5" mid. The JBL W12GTI is rated at 4,000W peak power handling (700W RMS) - would you even CONSIDER feeding a pair of 6.5" woofers that power?

The 3-way also prevents the midrange driver from receiving the power. It's efficiency is thus higher, even if it is padded down, it's only receiving the signal being sent to it. As a bonus you avoid frequency modulation distortion caused by trying to reproduce high frequencies simultaneously with high excursion.

Lastly, there's the point mentioned earlier - less excursion will almost always yield more predictable behaviour. A 12" driver has almost double the surface area of a pair of 6.5" drivers.

But yes, I agree with you that for a beastly type system we should strive for around 93db/w/m efficiency. That way that same 128w input will give you around 105db peaks in the typical setup. So the """ideal""" probably isn't a basic 3-way system, - you'd probably need at least one active crossover (to multiple subs) around 100hz, and very large boxes / diaphragms if you want 20hz extension efficiently. Add in a pro sound type 10" or 12" woofer 100hz - ~~300hz, (like the AE TD12X) and a very robust, efficient midrange (like the JBL C500G) on up to the tweeter, and a very robust and efficient tweeter (like the Beyma TPL-150)

So basically.. Jeff bagby's Salk Archos flanked by a pair of low inductance subwoofers a la Wayne Parham, and about four Mach V UXL-18 in the bass. No real need for a vent in this scenario.

I certainly don't think you'd need "off the charts SPLS" to hear an improvement over a 6.5" MTM.

[craigk]

i agree with you tin_ears, and with a sub handling the lower end you can play most good 2 ways louder than you want to listen to. in a normal size listening room even 97 db is loud. my focal utopia novas have 13 inch drivers and are rated at 91 db, but it is really more like 89.

[killa]

I prefer big speakers rather than subs. I have never had subs integrate as well as a woofer in a three way. Something always sounds wrong to me when using subs. I wonder if some people just hear a lot better in the lower regions than others? For instance when I was young I could not distinguish lower bass notes from each other very well but after playing bass for a while I can distinguish the notes very easily.

[GranteedEV]

Killa, I think if you've had sub integration issues it really has to do with the equipment and techniques being used. Integrated well, subs should sound much tighter and "drier" than speaker bass, without integration issues.

The biggest problem comes from using a port. Ports don't blend as nicely with subs as just a driver.