3-way design help....

[slevy951]

Ok so a buddy and I were talking and he wanted new speakers for his living room. Few years go by, few beers go by, we finally get one togther. Here is the basics....

Tweeter-Selenium HD200E-E (264-225)
Mid-Selenium 6W4P (264-422)
Woofer-Tang Band W8-740P (264-854) x 2
Xover- Dayton 260-150

All drivers are in their own 'compartments' in the cabinet. Woofer compartment is about .65 ft^3 with some minimal poly stuffing.

They sound great.

So your saying well what's the problem then? We only had an old Kenwood receiver to hook the 1 we built too. They are very very bright! Had to crank bass up all the way. Turned treble down to one notch off the bottom. Like this they sound great.

My question is......how do I make them more 'middle of the road' where they sound good with bass/treble flat???? or what did miss/do wrong??

Custom crossover? I can see bringing the woofers down some from 375, sure. Maybe 150ish? What about the other end? 3k seems pretty close, maybe 4k?

Thanks guys.
Scott

[greywarden]

Sounds like you just need a resistor in series with the tweeter. I don't have a number recommendation, but maybe someone else will.

Also, a custom crossover definitely couldn't hurt. What's your general location? Maybe someone here could measure them and sim up a crossover for you

[Chris Roemer]

Yeah. Tell us the sensitivities of those drivers. I'm guessin' the woofer is low, the mid is screamin' high, and that tweeter is really screamin' high.

[greywarden]

105dB
91dB
84dB + 84db in parallel = 90dB

[duanebro]

105dB
91dB
84dB + 84db in parallel = 90dB

Those are 4 ohm subs. I think he must have them in series. So no db gain. plus they really like ported boxes.

Adding a plate amp for the 740's could give him the bass that is missing. Plus that tweeter needs to be padded alot!

If you are close to me I can measure the speakers and get you a better xo design.

[slevy951]

Those are 4 ohm subs. I think he must have them in series. So no db gain. plus they really like ported boxes.

Adding a plate amp for the 740's could give him the bass that is missing. Plus that tweeter needs to be padded alot!

If you are close to me I can measure the speakers and get you a better xo design.

Series. Correct. i'm no where close. Tulsa, OK.

Recomendation on padding?

[Tin_Ears]

I can't help with loudspeaker design but I'll have a very similar twin bass system for use with a pair of MTM's powered by the Dayton bi-amp plates. I think I'm going to try the Yung 500w plate amp w/o boost and use some digital processing to EQ the lower octaves a bit and set a safe cut-off frequency. I do believe (approx.) 300 watts RMS shared between the W8's will be plenty to keep up with the rest of the system. BTW, if I wasn't counting on the 8's playing cleanly and flat down to 40Hz with some authority I'd only use one per side and use smaller plate amps. I'm aware that dedicated outboard amps work better but I want to keep the number of my outboard components to a minimum.

[greywarden]

Those are 4 ohm subs. I think he must have them in series. So no db gain. plus they really like ported boxes.

Adding a plate amp for the 740's could give him the bass that is missing. Plus that tweeter needs to be padded alot!

If you are close to me I can measure the speakers and get you a better xo design.

Oh yeah I didn't catch that.

You can do an L-pad on the tweeter, it is simply 2 resistors - one in series, and one in parallel with the tweeter ONLY. I made a chart for you, can try out different attenuations or just pick one, the 14dB might still be a bit bright, but the 17dB might be too much.

[duanebro]

Series. Correct. i'm no where close. Tulsa, OK.

Recomendation on padding?

I have not worked with those drivers, and do not know what values off the top of my head. Someone around here should be able give you a good starting point.

The biggest issue with padding is the low sensitivity of the tang band 740p's, they just don't fit well with the mid and tweeter. I think you need to put a seperate amp on them, or replace them. Are these options something you would be willing to do?

[slevy951]

I have not worked with those drivers, and do not know what values off the top of my head. Someone around here should be able give you a good starting point.

The biggest issue with padding is the low sensitivity of the tang band 740p's, they just don't fit well with the mid and tweeter. I think you need to put a seperate amp on them, or replace them. Are these options something you would be willing to do?

Ya, I'm learning, that sensitivity is what I missed considering here. Can I put 260-265 on the tweeter?

Next pair will probably see different drivers all together...

[greywarden]

You can. It's a little more than the resistors, but you'll be able to adjust it more easily.

Next time, I'd go with a proven design. There's lots of them that are relatively inexpensive.

[slevy951]

You can. It's a little more than the resistors, but you'll be able to adjust it more easily.

Next time, I'd go with a proven design. There's lots of them that are relatively inexpensive.

Thanks.

Proven design-true, easier. But I don't learn anything that way.....

[slevy951]

So back to the woofers......too late to port? .....would I gain anything? What port size/lenght for my .65 ft.....?

[slevy951]

Here's a pic......

[Jay1]

In addition to padding the tweeter down, you can also try adding a generic BSC circuit like this

http://speakerdesignworks.com/bafflestep.html

You would probably need to pick up an 8ohm, 12ohm, and 16ohm resistor to try out

[greywarden]

He probably doesn't need much BSC if it's in a corner like that.

And, it probably wouldn't benefit you to port such a small enclosure.

[Jay1]

True. He still needs to bring the mid level down if the woofers are 84db and the mid 91 db. 5 ohm resistor on the mids positive lead from the terminal to the crossover?

[mdocod]

Hi slevy,

If I have the time I may be able to help you with an x-over design that would bring these drivers together a bit more cohesively. I would need to know some details about the box dimensions and position relative to the listening position, driver locations on the baffle, etc. Also, what horn the selenium is mounted in is important as well. I won't be able to come up with a really hammered out perfect crossover because there isn't likely going to be any response data for your tweeter in your particular horn, however, I can certainly get things a lot closer than a pre-made crossover will get you..

I would like to dispute the idea that you would learn less from a proven design. Using a "pre-made" crossover will teach you only one thing: That a pre-made crossover can not make random driver selections work together. A proven design on the other hand, would expose you to a lot of the reasoning involved in building a proper crossover.

Regards,
Eric

[Tin_Ears]

slevy... Those are darned nice-looking speakers.

I can't be of any technical help but I'm curious. Are you completely against adding plate amps to the W8's?

[slevy951]

Well, put the other togther last night. My buddy LOVES them. Since they're going to stay where they are, no problem letting the receiver do the adjusting.

On learing, I hear everyone on the proven design, my only point is it doens't let me learn from my mistakes. Like this time!

Next pair may get a plate amp, different drivers, we'll see. I had fun!

Thanks to everyone for help/comments....