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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by charlielaub View Post
    Based on the excursion demands for OB use around the 120 Hz crossover point, I think that this driver is running out of gas at high volumes.
    I didn't hear that any of the times I was listening, but I didn't hear them "cranked up", either. There's been recent discussion on OPLUG regarding the LM/UM/T (or is it M/LT/UT) division and how to implement that in a possible ORION upgrade, and some hinting at baffle effects . . . the smaller baffle does put greater load (higher excursion requirement) on the lower mid. It's an area where the W22 (used in ORION) already has significant advantage . . . and it's on a bigger baffle, too. ORION tends to be limited by the woofers, not the mid . . . roles may be reversed with LX521. Everything has to run out of steam somewhere . . .

  2. #22

    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Thanks guy, but let it go. I'll take the usual beating. I'm well aware that when I post something about an SL design or web publication I'm treading on hallowed ground. What can I say, I was just born of the wrong parents with the wrong initials. But I have had great exchanges with other industry giants without such negativity. It's part of the marketing. The speaker gets introduced all over the web, here, DIY audio, HTGuide, AudioCircle.... And it always the Bee's Knees, better than all the rest, better than the last speaker (which was the supposed to be the last speaker you'll ever own). IT"S and F'in SPEAKER for crying out loud. How "good" can it be? I think I should be on retainer. I'm sure my contributions and controversy only enhances the discussion and the desire to buy into the clan.

    Anyway, I'm sure the revised Note will blow it's doors off! :
    John k.... Music and Design NaO Dipole Loudspeakers.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    I am not certain either and have the greatest respect for the work he has done. But.... when one critics someones design, with even valid technical points, don't be petty when they use those ideas in a commercial product. You decide ahead of time if advancing the state of art by sharing your knowledge is worth the risk of being being an unpaid consultant. When criticize someones design don't be petty when they take your advice. When they
    have the following, credentials, and contacts in the industry to get wide exposure don't ride on their coat tails while announcing that your design is cheaper, better designed, and more origional. People will just see it as oppretunism.

    The sophistication and availability of free or inexpensive design tools, as well as the incredible exposure provided by the web, has blured the distinction between hobbist and design engineer. Nelson Pass has been one of the few people able seperate both his commercial amplifier efforts (Pass Labs) and his wonderful DIY designs. His other company First Watt creats a new business model by creating designs that begin as commerical designs that become public domain after a given period of time. What I believe makes him so successful in this, is his absolute love for his craft and civility towards his competitors and critics.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by Deward Hastings View Post
    Who said that? (apart from John claiming that someone would . . .). John's designs would probably be a lot better if he was . . . (he seems to waste a lot of time just trying to be "different").
    Dewardh, I have tried to be servile with you over at DIY Audio, but at this point I have two words for you which I can not post.
    John k.... Music and Design NaO Dipole Loudspeakers.

  5. #25

    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by Deward Hastings View Post
    I didn't hear that any of the times I was listening, but I didn't hear them "cranked up", either. There's been recent discussion on OPLUG regarding the LM/UM/T (or is it M/LT/UT) division and how to implement that in a possible ORION upgrade, and some hinting at baffle effects . . . the smaller baffle does put greater load (higher excursion requirement) on the lower mid. It's an area where the W22 (used in ORION) already has significant advantage . . . and it's on a bigger baffle, too. ORION tends to be limited by the woofers, not the mid . . . roles may be reversed with LX521. Everything has to run out of steam somewhere . . .
    And I wasn't going to go there. But now that you brought it up.....
    John k.... Music and Design NaO Dipole Loudspeakers.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    John it is unfortunate you feel that way even though there is probable some truth in it. Nobody said the world was fair. There are objective people out there who are interested in what you are doing. Build some speakers get them out there and and let them speak for themselves, if you will forgive the pun. If it makes any difference, I felt the NaO note was a superior approach to the Orion. It may be that Mr. Linkwitz did as well.....

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by johnk... View Post
    And I wasn't going to go there.
    Why not? The tradeoffs associated with narrow baffles are no secret. I'm still contemplating all the ramifications of the new design . . . it's easy to criticize choices we've agreed neither of us would have made . . . not so easy to pause and consider why. Just because the reasons for it are not immediately obvious doesn't mean that there aren't any, or that the benefits are not worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnk... View Post
    Dewardh, I have tried to be servile with you over at DIY Audio,.
    “Servile” is not necessary, civil will do . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnk... View Post
    but at this point I have two words for you which I can not post.
    Why not? Still under copyright?
    Last edited by Deward Hastings; 11-14-2012 at 08:17 PM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by fdieck View Post
    I am not certain either and have the greatest respect for the work he has done. But.... when one critics someones design, with even valid technical points, don't be petty when they use those ideas in a commercial product.
    I would have no problem if SL decides to move the a higher order mid coupler or make the upper mid/tweeter the passive crossover and move the active between the mids. As I have stated several times, I contacted SL by email and suggest just that. It's his choice. Some of you just don't seem to understand that I have no commercial interest. I am DIY 100% and offer my design 'casue I want to shair them. I won't even consider building an active or passive crossover anymore. I've lowered the prices of the plans for the NaO II and Note. I charge for them only because of ther time invested and the cost of PC boards. I've turned down offers to take my speakers commercial. I not longer colaborate with Bohdan un the Bozdzio Ultimate Equalizer. I don't want the headaches of a commecrial venture. Let's get over this.

    Flash reveals grill frame.

    John k.... Music and Design NaO Dipole Loudspeakers.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by markk View Post
    As much as I admire SL, there appears to be a Steve Jobs type of reality distortion field surrounding him.

    There really isn't much new here except that SL changed his mind about how high up the dipole response should be. When he brought his original orions to one of our DIY's in 2001, the question was asked, "shouldn't the dipole response go higher (than 1.4k)?" SL dismissed it at the time. I can't recall the exact reasoning but it was something along the lines of he'd investigated that and did not find it fruitful. The same sort of response about the rear tweeter, really.

    So again, there isn't anything new. SL just changed his mind and is doing what we all thought made more theoretical sense a decade ago.

    john's been doing this for a while now if you've been following the forums. Hard to say he's stealing SL's idea unless you're in the reality distortion field.
    I think it is a little cynical to presume SLs intentions or reasons for the new speaker. It is in many ways besides the previously discussed, quite a departure from the Orion in terms of new driver materials. I am sure he is aware that many Orion owners are probably annoyed that he taken a new approach and obsoleted the design for one with less expensive drivers and a radically different enclosure. Completely unlike the typical new Apple product, I think the LX521 has much less snob appeal and represents an honest effort to improve the sonics and not just measurements and cosmetics. No one is sayin John K is stealing from SL and I don't think anyone would make the assertion that SL has stold from John K. He has acknowledged John's work.

    A passive midrange crossover was bound to cause criticism but keep cost and complexity down. Information about the network was made available and the simple network is easy for anyone to add to an additonal amplifier. He might be testing the water for further options as to active and passive crossover variation. For those who know what very good large value caps cost he should be applauded for keeping the passive network simple. A comparison to Steve Jobs.... I think not! Here we have some (friendly I hope) rivalry that should benefit the state of the art.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by Deward Hastings View Post
    Why not? The tradeoffs associated with narrow baffles are no secret. I'm still contemplating all the ramifications of the new design . . . it's easy to criticize choices we've agreed neither of us would have made . . . not so easy to pause and consider why. Just because the reasons for it are not immediately obvious doesn't mean that there aren't any, or that the benefits are not worth it.

    Sorry about that. Sometimes my hot Italian side can't control my hot Russian side.

    About the baffle, other than a slightly bigger baffle which will improve max SPL slightly, I don't see any advantage or disadvantage to it. It isn't something that I believe would alter performance, as opposed to the crossover which real life experience tells me could make a difference.
    John k.... Music and Design NaO Dipole Loudspeakers.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by johnk... View Post
    Sorry about that. Sometimes my hot Italian side can't control my hot Russian side.

    About the baffle, other than a slightly bigger baffle which will improve max SPL slightly, I don't see any advantage or disadvantage to it. It isn't something that I believe would alter performance, as opposed to the crossover which real life experience tells me could make a difference.
    Since we are already looking at a quasi 2nd order network anyway bringing the electrical high pass up in frequency while leaving the baffle contribution alone is possibility. We are already looking at an assymetrical network as it stands now....... of course what we really need is a five way crossover.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by johnk... View Post
    Sorry about that. Sometimes my hot Italian side can't control my hot Russian side.
    I had no idea "Kreskovsky" had an Italian side

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by johnk... View Post
    I don't see any advantage or disadvantage to it.
    I don't see the advantages, and do see (possible) disadvantage . . . which leads me to think that there's something about it that I still don't understand. I don't believe that SL would take on the disadvantage without some reason or return. We spoke about how the the shape was arrived at (not so much the size) at BurningAmp, and he said it was mostly empirical . . . an endpoint reached after a series of trials. The reason for making the mid/upper part of the baffle smaller is obvious (I don't know why it flares at the top) . . . I didn't think to ask what was gained by shrinking the lower part (compared to ORION).

    Worth noting is that LX521 have a particular target . . . the most accurate reproduction of orchestral/acoustic music at realistic (not amplified) levels in (relatively) small rooms . . . literally as "monitors". They are not "club" speakers. They are not intended to compete with Earl's or Bill's horns. And at least some of the music they were being demo'd with is not what they were designed for. May have something to do with it . . . and it will be interesting to hear if Charlie remembers what was being played, and how loud, when he heard the overload. I have to believe that they have been thoroughly tested at "normal concert hall levels" and don't exhibit the "problem" described.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/...-venner-3.html

    It appears to have gone viral. Norwegian if I am not mistaken.

    Attachment 30878

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    I didn't think to ask what was gained by shrinking the lower part

    I wonder if that could offset boundry reinforcement from the floor or subwoofer enclosure. Someone is going to ask me what I am smoking ( nothing but solder resin fumes) but I wonder if the baffle shape and size simularity to the human torso neck and head is entirely coincidental, knowing Mr. Linkwitz's fondness for binurial recordings........ no am not a fan of the Xfiles, it isn't that far out.

    For investigation into baffle shapes...

    http://www.tolvan.com/index.php?page=/edge/edge.php

  16. #36

    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    I'm a little "baffled" when people give John K a hard time or suggest he's promoting commercial interests. Folks, please note the following: (1) the Note and related kits are designed to be affordable rather than profitable. The kits and extensive design commentary are a contribution John K has made to the DIY community, and furthering the SOTA in speaker design. (2) John K is always right on technical matters. People contradict him all the time and he's always a good sport, kindly explaining how he proved (whatever) long ago. So it's senseless to argue or point fingers.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    I don't know what the entire system (amps,crossover,speakers) looks like.
    Can you provide a block diagram ?
    THANKS

  18. #38

    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by Flint View Post
    I'm a little "baffled" when people give John K a hard time or suggest he's promoting commercial interests. Folks, please note the following: (1) the Note and related kits are designed to be affordable rather than profitable. The kits and extensive design commentary are a contribution John K has made to the DIY community, and furthering the SOTA in speaker design. (2) John K is always right on technical matters. People contradict him all the time and he's always a good sport, kindly explaining how he proved (whatever) long ago. So it's senseless to argue or point fingers.
    No, I'm not always right but I usually admit it when I'm wrong, once I'm convinced (no easy task). But I think my comments re the LX521 1st order coupler have been blown way out of proportion. I offered a comment and something for consideration for possible improvement of the design. This was based on my own experience (emphasis on experience) over a number of years in the development of a similar design. And it was met by the typical response by SL supporters who have what experience; designed similar speakers, listened to the LX521 for 10 or 15 minutes at the Burning Amp, or just heard about it through net postings? Of course it is pointed out the SL is a guy who dots all the i's and crosses all the t's, and obviously he would have considered the mechanical and acoustic ramification of various crossover, and may have tried any number of variations. Perhaps, in which case my suggestion is moot. But the history of the Orion would indicate that SL's speakers are evolutionary, and subject to any number of design modifications over time. In light of that it seems that a suggestion of a path to follow which could improve the system, based on the observation of a fellow designer, might be taken for what it is.

    From a commercial point of view, SL vs JK is like OCC vs PJD, and that's a stretch. (Oh daddy, why can't we just get along?)

    But I have to admit, all this bickering has perked my interest in designing again. I had pretty much left the Note revision buried dead in a corner for lack of interest. This has put a smile on my face. So, thanks for that.
    John k.... Music and Design NaO Dipole Loudspeakers.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Quote Originally Posted by Flint View Post
    I'm a little "baffled" when people ...
    Are you, openly baffled? *rimshot*

    I offered a comment and something for consideration for possible improvement of the design. This was based on my own experience
    This is why I keep reading this forum. Its always good to listen to ideas and comments, no matter how critical. I mean, that is why we are all here right? right?

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Linkwitz LX521 info

    Orange County choppers vs Paul Jr Designs? Thank god for the internet for looking up obscure cultural references. I myself was reminded of the scene
    in Mean Girls where Tina Fey gathers the girls in the Gym for trust building to confess their transgressions and fall backwards to be caught by the crowd. When my turn comes the crowd will part and let me hit the floor. My confession is that I am banned for life from Diyaudio for life (and probably the afterlife) I will honestly state there no lack of interest in state of the art dipole speaker design I would be happy to move on to technical issues without looking for any more sutrefuge.

    Attachment 30885
    Last edited by fdieck; 11-15-2012 at 09:17 AM. Reason: spelling

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