I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

[Thumper Tom]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

You could do the Armadillo CC and reconfigure it to a tower or do the Armadillo TM and add the lowend that you want. I think you have a misconception about going sealed over ported, with my experience, I have gotten more of the deep punch in your chest and control from a ported speaker then I have with sealed. The only exceptions I have had to that have been a sealed 15" and two sealed 18" subs at 1200 watts. Both the designs above use your tweeter.

[rpb]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

Interesting. Is that Peerless really that much better than the Dayton's? I read the reviews and one user loves them when compared to the Dayton's he has.

I've not heard either woofer, or the Discovery, but with a $500 budget for the speaker you seem to want, these look appropriate. A sealed f3 of 40 hz is deep enough. The woofer has lots of excursion potential with an x-max of 8 mm, so it should play loud enough I think. Since the woofer is $100 or so, the mid could be a nice $65 one, or two $33 pieces of junk. Well, not junk, but it's hard to find great drivers at that price. I guess I just don't see the need for two mids, and two woofers in a speaker limited to a $500 budget. At $800, maybe.

Also, I agree with Pete. The x-over would be 400hz if I built it.

[lorenmjones]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

I was thinking some of the same thoughts as far as crossing very low from woof to mid and fairly high to the tweeter when I was coming up with my speaker design. My idea was to have one driver cover most of the vocal range in a three way. Kind folks like those here pointed me in a different direction and I'm happy they did. Pete's points below are important regarding the ability to cross so low from mid to woof in a passive design. If actively crossed over it is a little easier.

Anyway I think the Intrepids linked above by Isaeagle would be surprising to you in how much brutal output you can get out of a high quality 12" woofer yet how subtle and detailed such a design can sound. I say this not having heard his speakers but having built a pair of speakers recently that are 1 size class up from his (15" pro woofers in an MTMW three way). The clarity, dynamics and impact that I enjoy in my speakers are what it sounds like you are interested in. I'm not suggesting you consider building them, but you can see them in the link in my sig.

Anyway, I would still consider the Zaph SB12.3, or the Intrepids if you feel like the Tarkus won't be enough impact for you. The suggestion to consider the diysoundgroup designs plus good subs is also a very worthy thought. A pair of the Jeff B designed fusions (see link) could be around your budget. Then as budget allows with time you could add a pair of serious subs like some UM15's or RSS 18's. I know it is way outside your concept as presented but if you are really having trouble filling your room with the impact and level you desire using some of the speakers you have listed then something like the fusion might be just what you need.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits/fusion12-kit.html

That's what I was thinking. Twin 10 inch in a 48 inch cabinet. Hence the thought of using the "designer series" Dayton's. But, I'd like to cross over low, and use mid's that will handle 150HZ and up. Plus match with my Vifa tweeters, and 2500 seems about right.

So, I'd love midrange suggestions! I'm a bit afraid of using a single mid. They will be working hard, crossed at 200.

[djg]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

I never looked at Loren's design 'til now. It would be hard to go wrong with that setup. It is a large floor standing speaker that would satisfy you. If you can let go of those Vifa tweets.

[cujet]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

Cool, thanks! I have something to chew on. I'm not sure I want to spend $400 on woofers alone. Are the Designer Series Dayton's not good? I'm trying to read between the lines here... Obviously, people are suggesting drivers that are more expensive than I had planned.

Also, the "Scan-Speak 15W/8434G-00 Discovery, 5.25" Midwoofer" is only 86db. That might be a bit low for what I had planned, no?

As far as ported vs. sealed, I do understand that ported systems often have more punch. However, I typically prefer the sealed sound. Especially when driving very low at high power.

Not generally a horn tweeter fan either. Klipsch speakers are my least favorite.

I neglected to add, that I'd like the speakers to be "up to" about 48 inches tall for aesthetic reasons. Any smaller and they will look too small in the room for what I'm trying to achieve.

[lorenmjones]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

Except for the crazy price of the parts.

I never looked at Loren's design 'til now. It would be hard to go wrong with that setup. It is a large floor standing speaker that would satisfy you.

[djg]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

There are people on this board that will design a crossover for you if you can agree on the drivers. That crossover will be a computer simulation using some very good design software, but you will be the first to hear it after you build it. I didn't read Loren's design thread, but I doubt that Dennis Murphy did that for free. He is in the speaker business. Loren can correct me. Your other choice is a published design or kit.

Realistically, a pair of Jeff Bagby's Fusion Seos speakers built on your cab is a good option, near your budget. If Jeff wanted to design a speaker to sound like a Klipsch, I'm sure he could. You think his vented horn designs won't sound good. They probably sound very good, as he is a talented designer with lots of experience. He designs professionally, and also occasionally publishes a free design.

The Designer Daytons are fairly new. Johnny Richards did a design with a small Designer speaker that he thought was disappointing and not cost effective.

[lorenmjones]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

Dennis is an extremely kind speaker nut and asked only for a donation to his orchestra as compensation for his efforts in crossover design for me. With that said I think that the unique nature of my project/drivers piqued his interest. He can speak for himself, but I'm not sure he is in the business of doing crossover design work for any random rehash of a basic two way bookshelf design.

I do agree that the Fusion design by Jeff B would probably meet the goals of the OP, but it would also be possible to come up with a set of drivers and ask assistance from folks here on the board with a simulated crossover design or possibly even for a design based on measurements in the box if the OP lives near to someone with such ability.

I would think the existing Vifa tweeters with something like the FaitalPro 6" midwoofer http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...4-1150&scqty=1 and a pair of the 10" Peerless SLS woofers per side http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...4-1110&scqty=1 would meet his desires fairly well and be within the price range. Alternatively the pair of 10's could be swapped for something like the 15" Dayton series two woofer http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...95-130&scqty=1. All that would be needed would be kind assistance from PETT members with some crossover design skills and a willingness to help. I think a fairly efficient, good sounding full range speaker capable of reaching loud levels and doing rock music justice would likely result.

There are people on this board that will design a crossover for you if you can agree on the drivers. That crossover will be a computer simulation using some very good design software, but you will be the first to hear it after you build it. I didn't read Loren's design thread, but I doubt that Dennis Murphy did that for free. He is in the speaker business. Loren can correct me. Your other choice is a published design or kit.

Realistically, a pair of Jeff Bagby's Fusion Seos speakers built on your cab is a good option, near your budget. If Jeff wanted to design a speaker to sound like a Klipsch, I'm sure he could. You think his vented horn designs won't sound good. They probably sound very good, as he is a talented designer with lots of experience. He designs professionally, and also occasionally publishes a free design.

The Designer Daytons are fairly new. Johnny Richards did a design with a small Designer speaker that he thought was disappointing and not cost effective.

[rpb]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

Cool, thanks! I have something to chew on. I'm not sure I want to spend $400 on woofers alone. Are the Designer Series Dayton's not good? I'm trying to read between the lines here... Obviously, people are suggesting drivers that are more expensive than I had planned.

Also, the "Scan-Speak 15W/8434G-00 Discovery, 5.25" Midwoofer" is only 86db. That might be a bit low for what I had planned, no?

As far as ported vs. sealed, I do understand that ported systems often have more punch. However, I typically prefer the sealed sound. Especially when driving very low at high power.

Not generally a horn tweeter fan either. Klipsch speakers are my least favorite.

I neglected to add, that I'd like the speakers to be "up to" about 48 inches tall for aesthetic reasons. Any smaller and they will look too small in the room for what I'm trying to achieve.

Any speaker design will have compromises. The less money spent, the greater the compromises. Also, look for the weakest link in the design. For example, a woofer that handles 600 watts wouldn't do you much good if matched with a tweeter that is self destructing at 100 dB. If the tweeter you have is limited, then the speaker will be limited. If you really want to push the speakers so hard, then I would suggest increasing the budget to $1000. That will allow for more drivers to be used. Your speaker might also need to be closer to 8 cu-ft. Again, it's all about compromises.

[cujet]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

I'm really excited about building the towers. I'm still interested in dual 10's, dual mids and the Vifa tweet. And considering the Peerless stuff, although more expensive. It seems people here simply like those drivers over the Dayton's. Budget remains a concern, but I can do more if necessary.

A couple of suggestions above included so called "professional" drivers. These tend to be more efficient, and I've never used any pro drivers. Do they work well for Hi-Fi? Seems like they don't go as low...

[Taran]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

I'm really excited about building the towers. I'm still interested in dual 10's, dual mids and the Vifa tweet. And considering the Peerless stuff, although more expensive. It seems people here simply like those drivers over the Dayton's. Budget remains a concern, but I can do more if necessary.

A couple of suggestions above included so called "professional" drivers. These tend to be more efficient, and I've never used any pro drivers. Do they work well for Hi-Fi? Seems like they don't go as low...

They typically don't dig as deep, although there are some exceptions to the rule. The eminence 'LF' models are an exception. A pro driver can work well in a hi-fi setup; they're just optimized to play loud and handle rougher environment than the models designated for 'home' use.

[lorenmjones]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

Just as Taran said, often pro style woofers won't play as deep because they trade efficiency and enclosure size against LF extension. The eminence Lab12 in the intrepids, the eminence in the fusion among many other pro drivers will give good and fairly deep LF response. My speakers use all pro type drivers and have solid response to the mid 20's and to my ear sound pretty nice. The point is that pro style drivers can easily be used in hifi designs.

I recommended that FaitalPro mid because it looks to have useable FR, has enough efficiency to match your dual 10" plan and will play louder than you ever need with only one mid per cabinet. It is also a good bargain at 40 bucks or so. Narrow down your choices a bit and propose some stuff here. People can make sure what you pick will work together.

A couple of suggestions above included so called "professional" drivers. These tend to be more efficient, and I've never used any pro drivers. Do they work well for Hi-Fi? Seems like they don't go as low...

[isaeagle4031]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

Just an FYI on the lab12c used in the intrepids. They dig incredibly deep. They are loaded into 3cubes with an fb of 25hz and f10 of 19. Some of the comments from this last Indiyana gathering were "best bass of the day" to Jeff B " most controlled and articulate". Sobeven though some will classify it as a prosound driver, it is actually a very versatile woofer.

[cujet]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

OK, I'm willing to pay for the Peerless 10 inch woofers (Peerless 830668 10" Paper Cone SLS Subwoofer), even though they are less sensitive than I'd like.
And, there have only been a couple of midrange suggestions. Any other suggestions?

Midrange options so far:
Scanspeak 15M/4624G Discovery 93db?
or Scan-Speak 15W/8434G-00 Discovery, 5.25" Midwoofer" is 86db
HiVi F6 6" Bass/Midrange 88db, http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=297-440
"fatal-pro" haha, 6" midwoofer http://www.parts-express.com/pe/psho...4-1150&scqty=1
Peerless SDS-160F25PR01-08 6-1/2" Paper Cone Woofer Speaker



Thanks.

[bolland83]

Re: I'd like some help with a large floorstanding speaker design

That's the same woofer used in the Tarkus, which is an excellent design that will do pretty much exactly what you're looking for. I know it will certainly get loud enough to give you the "concert in your living room" experience, and they are voiced specifically for rock, electric guitar sounds perfect on them. The tweeters you have, aside from the sensitivity, are pretty close to what's in the original Tarkus design. It may be worth it to look into doing that design, with a crossover rework for the tweeters you have. I've used the smaller XT tweeters and they are really nice. I know the Tarkus is a ported design and you were looking for something sealed, but other than that I don't see why these aren't a perfect fit for you. Even building them as designed with having to buy tweeters, the total cost of parts is within your budget. I say go for it, and if you feel they are lacking in bass, it is most likely a room issue.