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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by Pallas View Post
    High efficiency, smooth FR, controlled midrange pattern, combine that with a narrow form factor (as narrow as the chosen WG will allow) and that had "winner" written all over it.

    Curious, Jeff, do you happen to have the old Audax aerogel or paper mids on hand? (Back in the day both impressed me more than the comparable Kevlar Focal). If so, I'd be curious how the Dayton compares.
    I have used the Audax paper mids, but never the Aerogel. However, I no longer have those in order to make a comparison. I do have some Focal W cone 6W4311's and measured them at the same time as the Daytons on the same baffle in order to make a direct reference back to something. The Daytons were almost exactly 6dB more sensitive and had much lower midband distortion. The Focals had a much better behave roll-off.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by mdocod View Post
    I don't think the thermal limits would ever be a problem unless used in a pro-sound application.

    -------------------

    Jeff B.

    Thank you for taking the time to share your measurements with us. It really gets the gears churning on big-3-way ideas. The first thing I thought when I saw these drivers pop up was that they might just have what it takes to pull off a DIY floorstander inspired by the B&W 800 series (something big, heavy, and efficient, with a sort of exotic high EBP large cone hifi oriented mid). Looking at your measurements this would definitely be a candidate for such an approach, though perhaps with lower crossovers all around.

    If you wouldn't mind me picking your brain a bit. You mentioned the Delta Pro 12A, in what I believe you were indicating could be a TMWW build with one of these PM180's. Anything in particular about the 12A in this configuration that tickled you the right way? After some round-a-round in my head with it I can think of a number of reasons this driver could make more sense than would appear on the surface (in-room response when detuned, high inductor value needed to curb some excess sensitivity would simplify component count in the low pass to achieve a steep slope), so I'm curious to know if you had gone though a sophisticated process to arrive at that, or if it was just a rough idea at the time.

    Thanks,
    Eric
    I chose the Delta Pro 12A because when I used it in my Tempest design with the SEOS12 I was very impressed with its abilities to cross nicely into the midrange and I really liked how it handled the mid and upper bass range. It had more "slam" than I got from other woofers, so it seemed more dynamic and life-like. When I tuned it a bit lower than textbook its in-room response was very nice down to the 40hz range, so all in all it has become a favorite of mine for a 97-98 dB woofer. It really rocks.

  3. #23
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    Sep 2005
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by davepellegrene View Post
    You may be thinking compression driver but if not the AST2560 did really nice in my 165mm x 115mm guide with a depth of 1-1/2".
    http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=276-440
    It says its sensitivity is 95dbs. I couldn't find a flat baffle measurement to compare the guide to. I must not have taken one. It did hold its top end with the guide.
    I used it in the open back speaker I brought to InDIYana this year.

    Here are measurements 0-90 horizontal on a 10" x 14" baffle with my guide.
    https://picasaweb.google.com/1016322...85908343177090
    It would easily cross at 2kHz.

    Dave
    Hmmmmm.... I like this idea. I will give it some thought. I loved the highs from the speaker you brought that used this tweeter last April.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by dcibel View Post
    Looks like one hell of a driver! Let's not forget there is an 8" model too!

    Dayton's response charts definitely don't make their drivers look that attractive, that's for sure.
    I have the PM220 model too. Oddly, it is a bit better behaved in the upper-end than the PM180 is, but the PM180 actually has lower midrange distortion, but just a bit better. The PM220 with a simple contour filter could be used as a full-range speaker and on-axis would be fairly respectable. Better than a Lowther, anyway. I thought about using it in my Alchemy speaker, but the Eminence Beta 8A was flatter below 2khz so I stayed with it. The PM220 has better bass though.

  5. #25
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    Jun 2009
    Location
    Louisville,Ky
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    954

    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff B. View Post
    I have used the Audax paper mids, but never the Aerogel. However, I no longer have those in order to make a comparison. I do have some Focal W cone 6W4311's and measured them at the same time as the Daytons on the same baffle in order to make a direct reference back to something. The Daytons were almost exactly 6dB more sensitive and had much lower midband distortion. The Focals had a much better behave roll-off.
    Aerogels RULE!! I'm an Audax wh0re, though....

  6. #26
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    Jan 2010
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff B. View Post
    I have the PM220 model too. Oddly, it is a bit better behaved in the upper-end than the PM180 is, but the PM180 actually has lower midrange distortion, but just a bit better. The PM220 with a simple contour filter could be used as a full-range speaker and on-axis would be fairly respectable. Better than a Lowther, anyway. I thought about using it in my Alchemy speaker, but the Eminence Beta 8A was flatter below 2khz so I stayed with it. The PM220 has better bass though.
    That's good to know, and I gathered as much about the rolloff from Dayton's graphs. I'd always wanted to try out the Beta 8A, however after seeing this I think if I need a beta 8 I might just splurge on the PM220 instead.

    A friend of mine built a 2-way "econowave" type of speaker with my help, using the Delta Pro 12A and D220ti that he uses in his basement theatre. I'll definitely keep these drivers in mind when he wants to upgrade either the surround/centre speakers, or upgrade the 2-way set to a larger 3-way set.

    It also would appear that either driver has pretty good bass extension used in a ported cabinet. Better than I expected and they don't need a huge cabinet like most high effeciency drivers either. I guess I can thank a powerful neo motor for that. Would make great 2-way stereo systems that only need 15-30W of power.
    Do It Someone Else.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Harrison, Ohio
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    21

    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Hi, I was wondering if anyone has used the Eminence Beta 6a in a design like this for a mid ? I happen to have 2 that I bought at the tent sale.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    A design like what? It's a very popular driver so I'm sure you won't be disappointed with them, however you decide to use them.
    Do It Someone Else.

  9. #29
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    Oct 2011
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    Harrison, Ohio
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    21

    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by dcibel View Post
    A design like what? It's a very popular driver so I'm sure you won't be disappointed with them, however you decide to use them.
    I just thought about making a efficient 2 way with the 6a as a midbass. Maybe with a small waveguide and the 18 Sound EAW 1 inch driver. I also am intrigued by the Dayton PM drivers and wondered if the 6a could be used similarly. I will bow out, just was thinking out loud.

  10. #30
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    Sep 2005
    Location
    Houston Texas
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    790

    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    A high end mid deserves a high end tweeter ! It will be interesting to see what tweeter has enough spl and sq to be considered highend enough to make the cut . Wave guides and cd 's are the latest buzz , they are not for everyone but obviously a way to achieve spl but to be considered high end may be debatable !? I'm sure a lot of people will be watching this one .
    ,donc

  11. #31
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    Mar 2012
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    Colorado Springs, CO
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Domes with ~90dB@2.83V@1M or better sensitivity should keep up with one of these on a traditional baffle without much trouble. More sensitivity would be better just for the sake of having some tinker room to square up the response and mellow out the load, but isn't crucial.
    Pro/Fi Cinema Speaker project: "From the Ashes"

  12. #32
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    Oct 2005
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    Ballwin, MO 38.597554, -90.547423
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by mdocod View Post
    Domes with ~90dB@2.83V@1M or better sensitivity should keep up with one of these on a traditional baffle without much trouble. More sensitivity would be better just for the sake of having some tinker room to square up the response and mellow out the load, but isn't crucial.
    If you were using it as a woofer in a two-way, you'd be correct. However, Jeff's using it as a mid with a 97dB woofer, so he'll need a 94dB or better tweeter to keep up with the 94dB mid.

    Big thumbs up to Dave's suggestion of the AST2560 in a guide. Those AC AMTs are very nice sounding tweeters.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by bathtub View Post
    I just thought about making a efficient 2 way with the 6a as a midbass. Maybe with a small waveguide and the 18 Sound EAW 1 inch driver. I also am intrigued by the Dayton PM drivers and wondered if the 6a could be used similarly. I will bow out, just was thinking out loud.
    The Beta 6A won't produce much in the way of bass by itself, so plan on using a subwoofer as well if you go that route. Fs of the PM180 is half that of the beta6. Simulate them both in a cabinet and you'll see what I mean about the PM180 an PM220, for a high efficiency driver they just don't need the big cabinet that the rest do, which makes them very appealing to me. Normal looking 2-way towers for the home are not out of the question at all.
    Do It Someone Else.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Schumacher View Post
    If you were using it as a woofer in a two-way, you'd be correct. However, Jeff's using it as a mid with a 97dB woofer, so he'll need a 94dB or better tweeter to keep up with the 94dB mid.

    Big thumbs up to Dave's suggestion of the AST2560 in a guide. Those AC AMTs are very nice sounding tweeters.
    Actually, having worked with the Delta Pro 12A before it is capable of 98 dB sensitivity in the upper bass. The mid, on a larger baffle, will sustain 95dB quite well and their will be some bandpass gain to factor in. So, a mating tweeter needs to be a least 96db to match well. 95-96dB was where I ended up with the SEOS12 / DNA360 when I mated it to the 12A in the Tempest, and that speaker has a little lift in the mid and uppder bass, but that sounded nicely balanced with the constant directivity of the waveguide. I found when working with the SEOS projects that you need to set up your on-axis response a little differently with waveguides than you do with direct radiators like dome tweeters. I doubt there are any domes that will keep up well, especially at a low crossover point. I rated the Tempest at 98dB sensitivity based on the woofer sensitivity (and it was crossing over at 1.3 kHz too). I expect this speaker to be reasonably close to that of the Tempest, but we will see.

    If I build it, a two tweeter option may be in order: one with a SEOS waveguide and compression driver and another, more high end version, maybe using the AST2560 AC AMT. This is all a bit down the road. I am still in the thinking-it-through stages and wanted to measure these mids to see how good of a candidate they were.

    Jeff

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    How about one of the Fountek?
    " And it's not just the end result -- nice speakers or a cool amp -- but the creative process that adds richness to my life; and an artistic outlet. A cool looking speaker qualifies as art in my book."
    Tom Zarbo, January 2014

    http://www.midwestaudioclub.com/spot...owell-simpson/

    http://s413.photobucket.com/albums/pp216/arlis/

  16. #36
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    Mar 2012
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    I must have misunderstood the context of what I was commenting on. Chatter about the applications of this in a 2-way getting mixed up in there and I was immediately side-tracked.
    Pro/Fi Cinema Speaker project: "From the Ashes"

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by mdocod View Post
    I must have misunderstood the context of what I was commenting on. Chatter about the applications of this in a 2-way getting mixed up in there and I was immediately side-tracked.
    If you're talking about using it as a midwoofer in a two-way, then yes, it is will have 6dB in sensitivity over most any other comparably sized driver. This could easily result in a true 90dB small monitor with some baffle step compensation already included. Of course, Hoffman's isn't called an iron law for nothing, and what you are giving up for this increased sensitivity is bass extension compared to those other woofers.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Precisely

    (already built something like it, and happily took the tradeoff. In my application I'm getting ~93dB@1W1M average sensitivity from a TM with an 8")
    Pro/Fi Cinema Speaker project: "From the Ashes"

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Quote Originally Posted by mdocod View Post
    Precisely

    (already built something like it, and happily took the tradeoff. In my application I'm getting ~93dB@1W1M average sensitivity from a TM with an 8")
    Sounds similar to my Alchemy design with the Beta 8A

  20. #40
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    Mar 2012
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    Default Re: Dayton PM180 - New High-End Midrange Driver

    Similar goal I'm sure, though I wanted to use only direct radiators and simulate my own crossover using a different method. A quick-n-dirty build log can be found linked to in my sig. Didn't seem to generate any interest so I stopped updating it with progress. I have been working on finishing the cabs as of late. A very slow, tedious process.
    Pro/Fi Cinema Speaker project: "From the Ashes"

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