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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Default Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    So I have noticed these terminals with crossovers or at least pass filters embedded.

    Like this guy:

    Speaker Wire Terminal Plate with 550 Hz High Pass Filter




    I asked a question on the product page but I rarely get straight answers when I do that.
    I am learning crossovers and high / low pass filters currently. Or trying my best, anyway. I guess I am a bit confused on the application of this terminal and the others like it PE is offering. Can someone explain in what situation one would use these? I have guesses but I'll hold off on speculating until someone chimes in here who knows the deal and isn't as green as I am, piecing info together and trying to make sense of it all.

    Here are some others for sale here at PE:

    Panasonic SUPS135-11 Speaker Terminal Plate with Tweeter and Mid High Pass


    CLICK IMAGE for high resolution picture of rear

    ---

    Speaker Wire Terminal Plate with 550 Hz Low Pass Filter



    CLICK IMAGE for high resolution picture of rear


    ---


    Speaker Wire Terminal Plate with 225 Hz Low Pass Filter


    CLICK IMAGE for high resolution picture of rear

    ---

    And the rest here:
    Factory Buyouts: Assembled Passive Crossovers (click)


    ---

    Anyone want to break it down for me? Maybe give a hypothetical in using these things?

    Thanks!
    A/V Obesessed Amateur and really, really green.
    I bet you never heard the my favorite on band. Push this (1, 2, 3) through your new project. Radio DJs can't help telling you what to listen to. Please don't mistake it for rudeness or that we think we're superior to you. We are not. At all.
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  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    wisconsin
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    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    Use for parts. Really. Some of the clearance items have a very good price, you get a terminal plate and various crossover parts for cheap.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    Irondequoit, NY
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    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    Use for parts. Really. Some of the clearance items have a very good price, you get a terminal plate and various crossover parts for cheap.
    Come on! Really? Because they are junk? Because one would / should create his crossover based on his drivers(?), and not just buy one with assigned frequency crossover points?


    --

    OK, I guess I'll throw out my guesses.

    The first thing I thought of these products is that perhaps a build could be created with two of these terminal types in one cabinet. Let's take the 550Hz high pass and the 550Hz low pass to make it simple. My guess was that I could have a two way cabinet, both terminals installed, with the high pass hooked to the tweet and the low pass hooked to the woof. This would mean (I assume) two identical channels from the amp- like, say, one of those Sure 4x100 amp boards, in a stereo setup. (L)eft x 2 feeds the two terminals on the Left cabinet, (R)ight x 2 feeds the two terminals on the Right cabinet.

    I suppose that's a lot of ridiculousness for a two way stereo cabinet pair. I suppose you could have some serious power with that setup... but kind of silly using all that gear. Maybe now, thinking / typing out loud, I am understanding why you said use 'em for parts.

    --

    OK- wipe that scenario above.

    What about this-

    Use the 550 low pass - two of them - for a dual sub? Is that a reasonable application? I realize the need for a dedicated amp and that once I'm above about 50wRMS, a plate amp would be cheaper and better... but a small sub perhaps?


    --


    NEXT!

    How about the "two-way" terminals, like the AR PS2062? (1,100/3,300 Hz) Using this in lieu of making a crossover seems pretty reasonable as far as frequency cross points, and at about $10 seems like a steal vs. building one with the same capabilities. No?


    --


    And lastly... I don't understand this product at all:

    Speaker Wire Terminal Plate with 550 Hz High Pass Filter



    The two sets of terminals. That's a pass through? So the idea is to feed it amp signal, this terminal lets the frequencies above 550Hz through and feeds to a mid/tweet, and then you can use the terminal "outputs" to - what? Does it feed the frequencies below 550Hz out to a woofer or sub? Or is it just (duplicate the above 550Hz signal?) to another cabinet?

    --

    Sorry if this line of idiocy annoys you guys. This is the most effective way for me to learn, through Q&A and using my minimal knowledge to hypothesize on this kind of stuff, and bounce it off those who know much, much more than I do.
    A/V Obesessed Amateur and really, really green.
    I bet you never heard the my favorite on band. Push this (1, 2, 3) through your new project. Radio DJs can't help telling you what to listen to. Please don't mistake it for rudeness or that we think we're superior to you. We are not. At all.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    Subbed.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2008
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    wisconsin
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    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    They are so cheap because they are basically useless except in their original product, possibly many years ago. Spare parts. The terminal cups are useable.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Irondequoit, NY
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    78

    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    Quote Originally Posted by djg View Post
    They are so cheap because they are basically useless except in their original product, possibly many years ago. Spare parts. The terminal cups are useable.
    So... all these crazy ideas I had are useless? Nothing I mentioned would work or is a good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    Subbed.
    I don't follow. The subwoofer idea?
    A/V Obesessed Amateur and really, really green.
    I bet you never heard the my favorite on band. Push this (1, 2, 3) through your new project. Radio DJs can't help telling you what to listen to. Please don't mistake it for rudeness or that we think we're superior to you. We are not. At all.
    about.me/spaker
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    I'm glad you asked the question as I've been wondering, too--how were these things originally used? How could they be repurposed? I'm curious just because i like tinkering and don't mind blowing a few bucks just for the fun of it. Everybody realizes that these aren't high-end products and no match for custom-built crossovers, but what about the fun/experimentation factor? Mix, match, see what happens, then move on to something else. That's what us greenhorns do.

    GeeDeeEmm

  8. #8

    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaker View Post
    So... all these crazy ideas I had are useless? Nothing I mentioned would work or is a good idea?



    I don't follow. The subwoofer idea?
    Subbed = subscribed to this thread, following along to find out what you find out.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Laporte, IN
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    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    Since we don't know what the drivers were that these were used on or their measurements, its a bit of a stab in the dark. At least we know what the parts are, so it is possible to plug and play in simland trying to find drivers that will work. We usually find the drivers first and then find which components we need to best match those drivers together, not the other way around. Not that it can't be done, but it will take more work than many will want to undertake.

    Maybe with the 550Hz HP and LP could be used with a woofer and 2-3" wide range driver.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Orlando, FL
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    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    Welcome. You will get a lot of help on this site, but you're not getting a lot of replies partially because so many on this forum are exhausted answering questions about using pre-made crossovers. They just don't work well. If you have an example of one that did, it was entirely coincidental.

    Read all of the links on the right side ("Resources") of this page. https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy

    It will cut months off your learning curve.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    manassas, va
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    1,388

    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    This may be good timing for you. You say you are learning crossovers currently, so maybe get a few of these, put them in one of your ideas and take a good long listen. Then use your learning to design a xo for the same drivers/cabinet and try that one. Compare and contrast. These are cheap enough to play with and use the terminals for a build.
    If dynamite was dangerous, do you think they'd sell it to an idiot like me?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
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    Tulsa, OK
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    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    Finding a real tweeter that will cross-over down at 550Hz would be a near miracle. The 1100Hz/3000Hz and the 1700/4700Hz XO leave quite a "hole in the middle" with most available drivers. Pieces of the 1100Hz for the low end should be OK for quite a few drivers, and with a few parts swaps from some of the other ones, it looks like you could pull down the high end XO for the tweeter to about 1500 Hz and use the Dayton "Silkie" with it. I'm thinking a low-budget 8" woofer (GRS) and the "Silkie" and ~ $16 worth of XO parts and a free terminal cup could make a decent (not outstanding) speaker for not many bucks. It might sound better than it has any reason to.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitneyville1 View Post
    Finding a real tweeter that will cross-over down at 550Hz would be a near miracle. The 1100Hz/3000Hz and the 1700/4700Hz XO leave quite a "hole in the middle" with most available drivers. Pieces of the 1100Hz for the low end should be OK for quite a few drivers, and with a few parts swaps from some of the other ones, it looks like you could pull down the high end XO for the tweeter to about 1500 Hz and use the Dayton "Silkie" with it. I'm thinking a low-budget 8" woofer (GRS) and the "Silkie" and ~ $16 worth of XO parts and a free terminal cup could make a decent (not outstanding) speaker for not many bucks. It might sound better than it has any reason to.
    The frequency descriptions are pretty meaningless as it depends very much on the impedance of the drivers being used. In fact, the 1100/3000Hz crossover is pretty useable. This thread http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...se-a-challenge shows at least one example of some drivers that would work quite well with this crossover as is.

    Dan
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  14. #14
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    Oct 2011
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    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    You're right Dan, I just meant as "plug-'n-play" pieces using single drivers. Then I left my participle dangling about the "Silkie" and a pair of 8" GRS woofers. (Can't you be arrested for that in some places?) Actually, that might be a darn good combination for the money. Little bit on the big enclosure side, but with modest power, it should shake the walls.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Another question: PE Factory Buyout: Assembled Crossovers (how do ya use 'em?)

    These come about because an OEM speaker manufacturer actually used them. They are only good for parts, as the cost of inductors is high, so you can get a great deal to stock up on coils if you plan on building more speakers or start to learn how to design from scratch. I tried many, many pre-made XO's, both the dedicated ones and ones like those terminal-based XO's. I never got close to acceptable performance/SQ from any of them. It wasn't until I came here 14 years ago asking why they were not working well, that I found out why they do not work properly. They use what's called "textbook" algebra formulas to determine the component values. Those formulas use fixed numbers, like 4 or 8 ohms as one example. Problem is no driver is ever a constant, fixed number with it's impedance. So if you use a fixed number in your calculations for a number that is variable, well you can see how that's a perfect recipe for lousy SQ. If the driver is a number other than 4 or 8 ohms at the cross-frequency, all your cap/coil values won't be the right value to cross at that frequency. And looking at the 550Hz one, I don't know of any viable tweeter that will perform that low, or any sub that should be crossed that high. Maybe crossing from a woofer to a midrange, but not a 2-way. There are some smaller full-range drivers that could be crossed around 550Hz, using them as a tweeter. Any XO method that only wants to "know" the nominal/average impedance (as a fixed number value) and an arbitrary cross-point, stay away from it and any values it generates. Many on-line calculators only require two values for its determination. That's why these solutions can never work well enough. Paul has a great write-up about these issues and other common misconceptions/misinformation here:

    https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy

    Read everything under "Resources" at the right. It will take only a few minutes...it's well-written, concise, and dispenses with the usual techno-speak. I wish that write-up had existed when I started out trying the pre-made/textbook XO design method. It would've saved me a lot of $$ and a lot time. The positive side with that is I learned through doing it, how to build nice speaker cabinets. So those experiences weren't all for nothing, but I could've been honing my skills on something that I could stand to listen to for more than a few minutes. Your points are valid about the viability of these offerings, but the practical applications won't work well enough for just about anyone to be satisfied with. It boils down to the fact that you cannot use fixed numbers for ones that are variable regarding XO designing.


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