Live recording technique???

[Phil_RC_1]

Presently we are recording or Church service using the line-outs from the mixer. It does a great job for the sermon but the recording mix of the Worship service (Music) is never going to match the live mix. Without going to the expense of a multi-track recorder etc. etc.,,,I would like to experiment with dual stereo mic's in the house.

1) Which Mic's? Cheaper the better, I'm thinking a pair of condensers. Maybe Dayton EMM-6's

2) Where to mount the Mic's? I'm thinking center rear wall with maybe a 24"x24" foam panel behind the mic's and a foam divider between the mic's to keep some stereo separation?

3) Would there be too much ambient noise or other problems?

Any suggestions of other ways to mic (record) live music?

Thanx, Phil

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Phil_RC_1

Presently we are recording or Church service using the line-outs from the mixer. It does a great job for the sermon but the recording mix of the Worship service (Music) is never going to match the live mix. Without going to the expense of a multi-track recorder etc. etc.,,,I would like to experiment with dual stereo mic's in the house.

1) Which Mic's? Cheaper the better, I'm thinking a pair of condensers. Maybe Dayton EMM-6's

2) Where to mount the Mic's? I'm thinking center rear wall with maybe a 24"x24" foam panel behind the mic's and a foam divider between the mic's to keep some stereo separation?

3) Would there be too much ambient noise or other problems?

Any suggestions of other ways to mic (record) live music?

Thanx, Phil

What you'll mostly get with mics is room echoes. With only two channels the mixer line outs will almost always be better. With multi-tracks you take a feed from the insert/direct out of each channel.

[SpasticColin]

If you are using stereo or mono main mix line outputs, then yes, you will definitely have a poor balance between music content and the spoken word. Unfortunately, room mics, especially omnis, will sound like murky, reverberant poo.

A typical live mix (as heard by the audience in the room) is going to end up being a composite of loud sounds coming directly off the stage (drums, electric guitars, a really enthusiastic clergyman) and softer sounds that need amplification through the PA (acoustic guitar, zither, any small child asked to read out loud in front of other people). That's why we have those fader things.

The listeners' ears and brains process and recombine these different sources into one chunk of aural information. Most small to medium size venues will produce off-the-mix recordings that are an acoustical mirror image of the original sources: not much snare drum, a whole lotta zither. Bigger venues are best because pretty much everthing is going through the PA or you're just not going to hear it at all.

Do you have any unused aux sends available? You can set up a nice discrete mix by using post-fader sends (the ones commonly used as effects sends). They will track the main mix but you can also adjust them to greater or lesser relative levels. You can monitor the mix through headphones and also tweak it after hearing a few of these mixes played back.

Using pre-fader sends (like monitor sends) will not work as well because you can pull down a fader in the main mix but it will still pass signal to your recorded mix. It's not impossible this way, but it's a lot more work!

Good luck.

SC

[KevinN]

When I dabbled with some mixing for the band my brother was in a few years ago, I used a mini-mixer to add some room mic to the mixer feed. It was an improvement on the direct feed, but time delays between the mics and the PA mix caused issues.

If you were able to record directly to a laptop with an external USB sound card, you could vary the balance (and time delay) between room mics and direct feed during editing. I imagine this could sound pretty good with directonal mics placed in the right spot (maybe near the front of the room?).

[Phil_RC_1]

Originally Posted by SpasticColin

If you are using stereo or mono main mix line outputs, then yes, you will definitely have a poor balance between music content and the spoken word. Unfortunately, room mics, especially omnis, will sound like murky, reverberant poo.

I'm just a bit stubborn and like to see (Hear!) things for myself, so I may try it anyway, using a sound absorbent "shield" to help cut down reverberant room echoes, noise etc.

Originally Posted by SpasticColin

A typical live mix (as heard by the audience in the room) is going to end up being a composite of loud sounds coming directly off the stage (drums, electric guitars, a really enthusiastic clergyman) and softer sounds that need amplification through the PA (acoustic guitar, zither, any small child asked to read out loud in front of other people). That's why we have those fader things.

The listeners' ears and brains process and recombine these different sources into one chunk of aural information. Most small to medium size venues will produce off-the-mix recordings that are an acoustical mirror image of the original sources: not much snare drum, a whole lotta zither. Bigger venues are best because pretty much everthing is going through the PA or you're just not going to hear it at all.

Our Problem exactly. We only use the music recordings for critique, but it would be great if they were a little better balanced. The sermon is used on our web-site and could still be recorded from line outs of the mixer.

Originally Posted by SpasticColin

Do you have any unused aux sends available? You can set up a nice discrete mix by using post-fader sends (the ones commonly used as effects sends). They will track the main mix but you can also adjust them to greater or lesser relative levels. You can monitor the mix through headphones and also tweak it after hearing a few of these mixes played back.

Using pre-fader sends (like monitor sends) will not work as well because you can pull down a fader in the main mix but it will still pass signal to your recorded mix. It's not impossible this way, but it's a lot more work!

Good luck.

SC

Great idea, I haven't thought of that, Deffinitely something to look into. We have 2 effects loops, one is setup as a chorus effect that is pretty-much unused. Thanx for the input.

Thanx to all. Now I at least have a couple things to try.

Phil

[henrythomas]

Hi to all,

Such a good recording techniques.
Thanks for this informative information.

[WmAx]

Originally Posted by Phil_RC_1

1) Which Mic's? Cheaper the better, I'm thinking a pair of condensers. Maybe Dayton EMM-6's

The Daytons, like all super small condensers, will have high noise levels, relatively speaking, especially a problem in mid or far field mic placements.

Behringer's B-5 is a superb unit. Very low noise, extremely flat response (nearly +/- 1.5db typical in the audible band - verified by 3rd party measurement), and high build quality. Comes with two different mic capsules: one for cardoid and one for omnipolar, allowing you to adapt to the situation/circumstances of the recording session. Both are excellent with very flat response.

I know of no mic that is really comparable without spending many times the amount of $$.

Note: this type of condenser is relatively fragile - and not suited all that well to typical live performance recording scenarios such as rock bands, etc.. It is more suited to things like classical/jazz recorded in such a way as to sound as realistic as possible using mid or far field recording methods. Also makes a superb studio mic.

-Chris

[Phil_RC_1]

Originally Posted by WmAx

The Daytons, like all super small condensers, will have high noise levels, relatively speaking, especially a problem in mid or far field mic placements.

Behringer's B-5 is a superb unit. Very low noise, extremely flat response (nearly +/- 1.5db typical in the audible band - verified by 3rd party measurement), and high build quality. Comes with two different mic capsules: one for cardoid and one for omnipolar, allowing you to adapt to the situation/circumstances of the recording session. Both are excellent with very flat response.

I know of no mic that is really comparable without spending many times the amount of $$.

Note: this type of condenser is relatively fragile - and not suited all that well to typical live performance recording scenarios such as rock bands, etc.. It is more suited to things like classical/jazz recorded in such a way as to sound as realistic as possible using mid or far field recording methods. Also makes a superb studio mic.

-Chris

I started considering this type of recording after reading Linkwitz's site. He has made some apparently decent live recordings using condenser capsules. Head capsule mic

Those Behringers are pretty cheap, I might be willing to take a gamble at that price.

What do you think about the matched pair C-2 or C-4's??

[WmAx]

Originally Posted by Phil_RC_1

I started considering this type of recording after reading Linkwitz's site. He has made some apparently decent live recordings using condenser capsules. Head capsule mic

Those Behringers are pretty cheap, I might be willing to take a gamble at that price.

What do you think about the matched pair C-2 or C-4's??

The B-5 is optimized for flat response, and comes with two capsules for maximum versatality(cardoid and omni), so due to these two things, I only recommend the B-5. Also, I have not measured the other two models you mentioned.

-Chris

[glenfoxman]

I am partial to using minidisc for recording live performances. If you plan to record live music as well as comedy shows I highly recommend that you get a quality mic as well as battery module or mic preamp to reduce distortion and clipping.
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Website I designed for payday loans ottawa company.

[meep]

echo that on the B-5. Seems like they also sold a matched pair (C-?) for $50, same as the B's but a single capsule. Good bang for the buck, though mine developed a loose connection at the xlr. needed touch-up solder.

also echo the room ambience atop board feed. The aux-send mix is great if you have the sends. It's hard to do a good recording in a mixed environment where some sound (drums, stage amps) is natural while others (vocals) is PA'd.

I would:
1- mic for ambient. Stereo.
2- mono board feed.
3- experiment with mic placement. Probably better up close considering room noise, reverberation, time delay.
4- experiment with mic positioning--- seperate L-R or an X configuration.

I have done this even with up to 5 piece dance bands and had decent results.

[Phil_RC_1]

Originally Posted by WmAx

The B-5 is optimized for flat response, and comes with two capsules for maximum versatality(cardoid and omni), so due to these two things, I only recommend the B-5. Also, I have not measured the other two models you mentioned.

-Chris

I guess I'm gonna find out . Got two B-5's on the way. Now to decide how to mount them. I'm still thinking the best chance to avoid excessive room noise and rumble is to somehow shield their periphery to limit the ambient noise, Maybe?

Until I get this worked out, I'm going to keep recording the way we have been, Sooo,, I'll have time to experiment and get it worked out. If all else fails, I guess the mic's will work well as overheads for the drums.

Thanx Guys,
Phil

[meep]

don't shield them. They should have ports on the sides to enable the directional pickup. If you do shield them, it should be a large flat absorbant surface BEHIND THEM, not next to them. But don't overthink this. Put them on stands first and mock up everything. Lots can be achieved by being simple and going thru the basics first.

M

[ampnation]

I'm a noob when it comes to live sound but I did some reading based on my desire to offer multitrack recordings to bands that use my PA system. I was looking at using the Fostex or Alesis 24 track ADATs. One aspect was that I wanted to record the crowd reaction and read a great article that talked about using a couple of shotgun mics. It doesn't sound like the OP necessarily wanted crowd noise but I am thinking they might be able to pick up that listener perspective he's looking for. (or she) The suggestions in the article were for AKG mics which were several hundred dollars each, but I saw an SM Pro Audio em9600 shotgun for $89. Couldn't find reviews of this mic though.