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Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

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  • Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

    With the HO model having a 12mm Xmax and an 800watt RMS power rating, it seems that this may work as a pro sound woofer for a dance club in a ported enclosure.

    This woofer has a comparable displacement to a typical 8mm Xmax 18" pro sound woofer.

    Assuming I have more than enough power, (I have a 20,200 watt RMS amp rack) would they have similar max SPL?
    Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent.

    Scanspeak Revelator R2904/7000's, Scanspeak Revelator 15M/4531K00's, Scanspeak Revelator 22W/8857T00's, Eminence NSW6021's.
    MiniDSP 4x10HD. ICE Power amplification and an iNuke 3000.

    Sennheiser HD650's powered by TEAC amplification.

  • #2
    Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

    Fs: 18 Hz SPL: 90 dB 2.83 V/1m, 87 dB 1W/1m, Vas: 9.95 cu. ft
    Compare that to a "typical" Pro 15" and the differences are that Pro models trade LFE for higher output by design, because LFE is not as important as SPL in a live context.
    A Hoffman compromise:
    Eminence 3015LF: Fs 45Hz ,SPL 100db, Vas 5.4 cu. ft.
    "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
    “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
    "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

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    • #3
      Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

      The primary factor seperating pro drivers from everything else is sensitivity and an 8-10db difference is massive. If you have never heard a proper pro audio sub like the PV Lowrider or Eminence 4018LF in action you owe it to yourself to experience it, if all you have ever heard is HT subs it'll be hard to believe you can get that much sound out of so little input power.
      Paul O

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      • #4
        Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

        Originally posted by Paul O View Post
        If you have never heard a proper pro audio sub like the PV Lowrider or Eminence 4018LF in action you owe it to yourself to experience it, if all you have ever heard is HT subs.....
        I'm far more familiar with pro audio than most on this site.

        What I'm not familiar with is what factors determine the max SPL of a woofer.

        Is it mainly a function of displacement (Xmax X Sd)??

        Can different woofers with identical displacement produce the same max SPL at frequencies below 100hz?
        Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent.

        Scanspeak Revelator R2904/7000's, Scanspeak Revelator 15M/4531K00's, Scanspeak Revelator 22W/8857T00's, Eminence NSW6021's.
        MiniDSP 4x10HD. ICE Power amplification and an iNuke 3000.

        Sennheiser HD650's powered by TEAC amplification.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

          Originally posted by Sydney View Post
          Fs: 18 Hz SPL: 90 dB 2.83 V/1m, 87 dB 1W/1m, Vas: 9.95 cu. ft
          Compare that to a "typical" Pro 15" and the differences are that Pro models trade LFE for higher output by design, because LFE is not as important as SPL in a live context.
          A Hoffman compromise:
          Eminence 3015LF: Fs 45Hz ,SPL 100db, Vas 5.4 cu. ft.
          I actually have a pair of 3015LF's. If I'm going to run Eminence pro audio specific drivers, I'd rather just go with 18's.
          Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent.

          Scanspeak Revelator R2904/7000's, Scanspeak Revelator 15M/4531K00's, Scanspeak Revelator 22W/8857T00's, Eminence NSW6021's.
          MiniDSP 4x10HD. ICE Power amplification and an iNuke 3000.

          Sennheiser HD650's powered by TEAC amplification.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

            Because it would take 10 watts to get a Rss390 to produce the same SPL as a Pro driver produces with 1 watt , That ratio would be 100 watts to 10 watts etc
            The pro driver requires less power for desired SPL and reaches higher SPL before Power Compression causes diminished SPL and potential damage:
            On JBL's site
            http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...lications.aspx
            is the paper by Douglas J. Button
            Heat Dissipation and Power Compression in Loudspeakers
            and the paper by Mark R. Gander
            Dynamic Linearity and Power Compression in Moving-Coil Loudspeakers

            The negative thermal effects of power flowing through the typical VC made of #29 wire sets in quickly and changes T/S parameters and the amount of wasted heat increases and SPL drops.
            "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
            “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
            "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

              I couldn't argue with any of the cautionary statements that have been made, but will point out that the eminence lab 12, is considered a true pro sound driver and has the same limitations as the RS390. So it is possible. The question I would have to ask is, why on earth would you want to? Any of the eminence 'LF' drivers should get you as low as you need

              And yes, a 15 in driver, running +/- 8mm, will give the same SPL, regardless of it's design intentions. One of the other differences between prosound and HF is a durability factor. Prosound drivers are DESIGNED to run at close to rated power for long periods, where HiFi are not. Also, the frame and general construction are designed to be moved and transported a lot, HiFi is NOT. And while I love my RSs390, one of the major defects on it is the mounting holes. They located very near the inside of the frame, leaving you very little wood to mount the driver to. Works fine in my living room, but I would NOT want to move it around much, there is just not much holding the driver to the box.

              My rule is simple, use the right tool for the job, and you will be better off. Prosound application, prosound driver.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

                I'd rather just go with 18's.
                The advantage of using an 18 is the 35% greater Sd. To move the same Vd the 15 has to move 35% more.
                Paul Klipsch, is his papers on Modulation Distortion showed the relationship: Increased excursion - increased distortion.
                Wolfgang Klippel analysis and papers:
                http://www.klippel.de/uploads/media/...ymptoms_06.pdf
                http://www.klippel.de/uploads/media/...arities_00.pdf
                Shows performance linearity issues with increased power and excursion.
                Such as:
                "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
                "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

                  Originally posted by AMC View Post
                  I couldn't argue with any of the cautionary statements that have been made, but will point out that the eminence lab 12, is considered a true pro sound driver and has the same limitations as the RS390.
                  When used other than where it's intended to be used, in a horn, the LAB 12 won't work well in a pro-sound application, for the same reasons why the RS390 won't.
                  www.billfitzmaurice.com
                  www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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                  • #10
                    Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

                    Originally posted by billfitzmaurice View Post
                    When used other than where it's intended to be used, in a horn, the LAB 12 won't work well in a pro-sound application, for the same reasons why the RS390 won't.
                    Agreed, although the OP has never mentioned an intended application for said driver. All in all, I think there are ample reasons not to do this.

                    Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                    Shows performance linearity issues with increased power and excursion.
                    And in other breaking news, water is wet! Smart-a$$ comments aside, Other things to consider are the problems that come from the increased size, i.e. as BFM has mentioned, they seem prone to damage in some horns, I have also heard, that as the cones get larger, it gets harder and harder to keep the rigidity, and this can bring in both distortion and reduced output with power. No such thing as a free lunch, for every plus there is a minus.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

                      And in other breaking news, water is wet! Smart-a$$ comments aside, Other things to consider are the problems that come from the increased size, i.e. as BFM has mentioned, they seem prone to damage in some horns, I have also heard, that as the cones get larger, it gets harder and harder to keep the rigidity, and this can bring in both distortion and reduced output with power. No such thing as a free lunch, for every plus there is a minus.
                      I wasn't trying to be SA or condescending, but unfortunately many look at the published Vd face value as a means of guess-timation and don't consider all the factors.
                      Imagine the response; If a statement was made that 2 internal combustion engines of similar displacement were always equivalent in performance...
                      Totally agree - TANSTAAFL ( larger driver - more mass, inertia Newton's laws yada yada )
                      RCF makes a 21" LF21N451 ( used in the El Whappo bass cab; IIANM )
                      EV used to make a 30" woofer, but it had it's issues and wasn't commercially viable.
                      "Not a Speaker Designer - Not even on the Internet"
                      “Pride is your greatest enemy, humility is your greatest friend.”
                      "If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

                        Originally posted by Ray Tremblay View Post
                        what factors determine the max SPL of a woofer.
                        All factors play a roll, the driver sensitivity, power handling, and displacement capibility, and of course the type of cabinet it's loaded in. If we just look at reflex designs then the pro driver has the spl advantage everywhere except at subsonic frequencies, and while that's nice to have that end of the spectrum is usually filtered out(with live sound anyway) as it often contains a lot of noise that just adds mud to the mix.

                        Paul O

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                        • #13
                          Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

                          Originally posted by Sydney View Post
                          I wasn't trying to be SA or condescending, ...
                          I was the one being a SA, It's what I do.:D

                          I always wanted to see one of those 30" drivers, the must look awful impressive, even if they don't sound good. Someone also made a 24" many years ago, heard it wasn't so good either.

                          Again, I go back to the "right tool for the job". I can use a chisel as a screw driver, it's just not smart. The RSS390 may work in the right application, but why try and re-invent the wheel.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

                            Originally posted by Paul O View Post
                            If a picture is worth a thousand words, that one about sums up the differences between a prosound driver and a HiFI driver in the low freq ranges.

                            Why would you need 20HZ output in a live show? you DON'T!
                            Why would you need 125db in your living room? you DON'T!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Dayton Rss390 As A Pro Sound Woofer?

                              Originally posted by AMC View Post
                              Why would you need 125db in your living room? you DON'T!
                              Clearly you don't share the views expressed here:
                              http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=155

                              They not only want 125dB in their living room at the listening position, they want it at 10Hz.
                              www.billfitzmaurice.com
                              www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum

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